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Devotti Single Hander

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4870
Printed Date: 29 Sep 22 at 1:54am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Devotti Single Hander
Posted By: ifoxwell
Subject: Devotti Single Hander
Date Posted: 14 Nov 08 at 10:10pm

Rumor has it that they are working on a hiking single hander with a spinni...

Has any one seen anything of it yet or know any more about it?

Ian




Replies:
Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 4:33pm

This could be an interesting thread....if one was to develop a new hiking singlehander with kite, what should it be like....

Performance upwind (est PY)?. Round the course performance (Est PY)?

Racks / solid wings? Performance equalised? Or just simple like 300?

Centreboard / daggerboard?

"unstayed" (no forestay) for easy hoist / gybe like Vareo, or fully rigged like MPS/700.? Or a combination?

If one went balls out and did the ultimate qualiy boat would you pay £10k for complete package with combi / covers?

 Mainsheet style? What about a little self-tacking jib?

Nick.



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Nick




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 5:05pm
Ah well, Nick, the best way of getting a singlehander upwind is of course a plank. Less drag than wings/racks, more righting moment than Trapeze... The nearest you'll get to an ultimate quality hiking/spinnaker singlehander is of course available to order from Rob Michael, but that level of quality will cost a little more than 10K and isn't for the mass market...

Performance equalisation does seem to be a bit last century, but I never liked the idea so maybe I'm biased. Also do you think anyone's ever got it to work even partially well in a singlehander?

On rigs, Steve (Cogito) Clark once built an experimental singlehander with 4 shrouds, X spreaders and no forestay which had a self tacking asymmetric.

Personally I think a jib does make it easier to get a singlehander in the groove upwind, but I find self tacking ones a pain to get right upwind. No choice in a spinnaker boat theough.


Posted By: Rob D
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 5:09pm
Several years ago, Dave Hall modified the controls on a 29er to allow single handed trapeze sailing. The boat was a awesome.

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Rob Dulson
Ex Base 1 Skiff Team


Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 10:03pm

[QUOTE=JimC]
Performance equalisation ....... Also do you think anyone's ever got it to work even partially well in a singlehander?
QUOTE]

Yes

Ian

RS700 GBR960

http://www.sail4cancer.org - www.sail4cancer.org



Posted By: laser4000
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 11:33pm
Originally posted by ifoxwell

Rumor has it that they are working on a hiking single hander with a spinni...

Has any one seen anything of it yet or know any more about it?

Ian



Like we really need another frikking single hander with a spinnaker.

If you want slow buy a vareo if you want fast with a trap buy a 700 or an MPS. If you like to fiddle/experiment then go DC

In this economy trying to establish a new class is a pretty futile exercise unless you've got Nick's marketing clout and even that would be a big ask. I mean with 2m unemployed (nearly) including some sailing friends whose gonna have 6 or so big ones to blow on a new toy apart from grumpf...


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by JimC

Ah well, Nick, the best way of getting a singlehander upwind is of course 2 hulls and a wing mast. .


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Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 15 Nov 08 at 11:56pm

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by JimC

Ah well, Nick, the best way of getting a singlehander upwind is of course 2 hulls and a wing mast. .

 

Nice one simon!!! 

 

If RS built something like the 300 with a kite i would buy one, not for 10k though!

 



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

Originally posted by JimC

Ah well, Nick, the best way of getting a singlehander upwind is of course 2 hulls and a wing mast. .

And then save weight by leaving off the windward hull...

Seriously though you'll never find me criticising the As, which are one of the great boats, but don't fit well under the *Dinghy* topic


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 8:45am

to be honest, if there was a fast hiking singlehander for £5k ish i would go for it, but there are no fast hiker singlahanded boats (by fast i mean py less than 900 that is not a canoe)

I am lookin at new boats at the moment and the only boats that appeal are the 600, 700 and maybe musto.



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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Nick Peters

This could be an interesting thread....if one was to develop a new hiking singlehander with kite, what should it be like....

Performance upwind (est PY)?. Round the course performance (Est PY)?

Racks / solid wings? Performance equalised? Or just simple like 300?

Centreboard / daggerboard?

"unstayed" (no forestay) for easy hoist / gybe like Vareo, or fully rigged like MPS/700.? Or a combination?

If one went balls out and did the ultimate qualiy boat would you pay £10k for complete package with combi / covers?

 Mainsheet style? What about a little self-tacking jib?

Nick.

£10k for a singlehander is a lot of money - for that I would want top quality international competion, not just UK based.  And it seems that such a high quality boat would be competing against the established trapeze singlehanders 700/MPS/F16/A Class/Canoe (honorary trapeze boat!) etc.

So I would rather see something a bit more moderate and cheaper - the Vareo appears a good concept but doesn't seem to have quite hit the nail on the head - perhaps a little too dumbed down?

I think I would be looking for such a boat to perform similarly to a RS400 upwind and down, so a PY of around 950.  Any slower and the performance advantage over the Phantom, Laser, 300, Blaze etc would be too small to warrant the extra expense and hassle of the kite.  And at 950ish, you can race the 400's, Fireballs, 500's, 29ers etc more closely over the water.  Any faster and you risk raising the required skill/dedication level above the mainstream.

Personally I believe that if the hull is long enough and the rig adjustable enough, performance equalisation is not necessary, but it probably doesn't do any harm to design in such a system.  Again, my personal preference would be for short (approx 40-50cm) trampoline wings - a sort of dumbed sown Moth look.    

Daggerboards v centreboard - I prefer a dagger myself (if only because it means no annual change of the slot gaskets!), but understand that they aren't ideal in some locations.

Shroud v free standing.  The 300 rig is aesthetically beautiful, but I can't imagine something similar with a kite.  So I would go for shrouds and forestay with the forestay on a short base a la 700.

Finally, I have a pet hate of metal on boats.  I would want as little metal on the boat as possible (carbon spars, rope attachements etc).

Of course, rather than a kite you could always go with a swing rigged jib...

Oh, and I reserve the right to change my mind on these answers on a whim.

Toby (formerly Chew my RS, but lost my log in!)



Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 10:03am

Nick,

I wouldn't pay 10K - I wouldn't pay 2K!  My 300 is the perfect hiking singlehander!

Matt



Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 4:39pm
Something like a centre sheeted N12 with self tacking jib and asym.


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Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 5:26pm
Well what a co-incidence this is, another missed day today crewless and
I'm now looking for a single hander, lots of what's been written above
would suit me.

Cross between an MPS, & Contender.

I like the idea of a self tacking jib, so a solution to Irons those two craft
always seem to find themselves in.

Definitely a retracting centreboard, PY around 950 not worried about
equalisation but would want it to be useable in 25 knots on the sea.

Would want to learn to trapeze and it to have a spinnaker so I wont get
bored offwind.

Perfect boat for me would be a scaled down Alto with all the same gizmos

Oh and find a way to give the rig a sliding track, so it would cook a bit
offwind and keep the nose up in a following sea, not much to ask.


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 5:43pm


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by G.R.F.

Well what a co-incidence this is, another missed day today crewless and
I'm now looking for a single hander, lots of what's been written above
would suit me.

Cross between an MPS, & Contender.

I like the idea of a self tacking jib, so a solution to Irons those two craft
always seem to find themselves in.

Definitely a retracting centreboard, PY around 950 not worried about
equalisation but would want it to be useable in 25 knots on the sea.

Would want to learn to trapeze and it to have a spinnaker so I wont get
bored offwind.

Perfect boat for me would be a scaled down Alto with all the same gizmos

Oh and find a way to give the rig a sliding track, so it would cook a bit
offwind and keep the nose up in a following sea, not much to ask.

Would you really want a swinging pole on a singlehander? Especially a trapeze opne (and this thread was as a starter about hiking ones)? I reckon anything you'd gain on angles you'd lose on swimming after gybes due to increased complication. I may be wrong, but then I'm a fan of simple things. Which may say a lot.


Posted By: Paul B
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by JimC

Performance equalisation does seem to be a bit last century, but I never liked the idea so maybe I'm biased. Also do you think anyone's ever got it to work even partially well in a singlehander?


My experience is that it does work...  up to a point.  You're never going to be able to equalise perfectly, so maybe "Performance Tinkering" would be a better phrase...

In the 700, we've seen the Performance Tinkering work really quite well.  I remember a very light wind day at the Nationals some time ago, with a furious 65kg Jason Belben getting rolled down the last run by a less-than-svelte 90+kg Andy White.

Similarly in a fresh-to-frightening nationals a few years later, I remember Jason winning the windiest race by sailing really well and going really fast. 

I somehow doubt that those results would have occurred without the Tinkering system.


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 7:54pm
Has the blaze always had a spinnaker?

And what's it like as an off the beach boat?

Strikes me it might be worth considering, I shall go and check its PY.

I'm wondering also, is it the boat the French had built with a centreboard
or
was that something else?

The swinging pole thing works only when it's light weather, and it's then
one
is at one's most bored and/or looking for tactical advantage.


Edit: Clearly not, at least it's not on the blaze site, and I've given up trying
to join the blaze yahoo group, how stupidly complicated that is. So wht's
going on? Another experimental development boat? Sign me up


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 10:14pm
Graham, no the blaze doesent have one normally, there has been one retrofitted as seen earlier its a v3000 kite.

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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 10:52pm
Strikes me that could eventually be a 'sensible' Musto.

Especially if a wire 'option' were added.

Only downside, having searched and read all the Blaze X, and Vareo
Development threads, neither is likely to happen and with Rondar in the mix,
even if they wanted to it would be years before anything happened.

Honestly it's like wading through treacle waiting for anything 'exciting' to
happen in this dinghy lark and when it does, it takes forever to put it right.


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 10:54pm
Graham why dont you design your own boat there are pleanty of resources around today and pleanty of people that would be more than happy to help, building carbon or even foam sandwich hulls are fairly easy to build.

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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 8:43am
Originally posted by sargesail

Nick,

I wouldn't pay 10K - I wouldn't pay 2K!  My 300 is the perfect hiking singlehander!

Matt

Here here. Unless there is a decent single hander hiker with a kite there is no life after the 300 for a single hander hiker. May be the Vareo should had been the 300 with a kite.



Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:03am

Blaze 720 sorry I'm confused as to why you have posted the Asymmetric Blaze picture?

In the past whenever this project has been raised, there has been good interest, but as far as I know you have all ways stated that it would not happen. There is a real niche here that a Blaze Asym could easily fill.

Now the hull is nice stiff Epoxy it would stand up to the rig loads of an Asymmetric really well, possibly a larger main, as well as the additional load of potentially widening the wings like the B14. This would transform the Blaze into fully planing mode upwind and make it awesome downwind. As it will never be as fast as a Musto you would gain the fun of tactical downwind asymmetric shenanigans. Through thoughtful choice of kite size (IMHO the V3000 kite seems a little large) you would be able to get the Blaze Asym around a club course / beam reach, keeping it manageable for the less experienced and enjoy the extra tactics. This would all bode well for the class with close tactical racing and prevent the corner banging of the likes of the Musto and 700 ( I appreciate Musto and 700 sailors that the higher end of the fleet are able to make these tactical gains but for the mere mortals banging the correct corner seems to be fastest)

So has the time come? Will we see a Blaze Asym? Only Blaze 720 can answer that ... ?



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RS300 426 18' SkiffTango Musto 051
B14 644


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Inland sea


So has the time come? Will we see a Blaze Asym? Only
Blaze 720 can answer that ... ?



So, I take it from that Blaze 720 would be the guy at the dinghy show I
might have spoken to once?

Is it a class owned hull?

Who owns the moulds?

What's to stop someone just knocking them off and building this thing
called something else entirely then, if the class are so pedantic they can't
see the obvious..?


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:48am
Originally posted by Inland sea

Blaze 720 sorry I'm confused as to why you have posted the Asymmetric Blaze picture?

So has the time come? Will we see a Blaze Asym? Only Blaze 720 can answer that ... ?


This boat has been knocking around for a number of yars with the assy 'modification'. It was discussed extensively at a couple of AGMs and pretty much unanimously rejected by the class. The resoning is that the boat is accessible to pretty much anyone, it is easy to sail but very hard to master and responds well to a lot of time in the boat. It was felt that adding an assymetric to the boat would put it out of reach of most of the current ownership (which is growing nicely). This does not preclude people who wish to play though.

For those who are a bit on the large side they are developing the 'Blaze 100' (name to be decided) which has a large sail and is designed with people who are 100 KGs + in mind. It will be primarily aimed at the US markets but there have been murmerings over here of a lot of interest so it may get launched here too.

Blaze 720 being the builder (with Rondar making the hulls) is able to comment more on this.

I believe the class owns the moulds (having bought them from Topper when they stopped making GRP boats) but the rights are still owned by someone else.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 10:12am

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Inland sea

Blaze 720 sorry I'm confused as to why you have posted the Asymmetric Blaze picture?

So has the time come? Will we see a Blaze Asym? Only Blaze 720 can answer that ... ?

 

This boat has been knocking around for a number of yars with the assy 'modification'. It was discussed extensively at a couple of AGMs and pretty much unanimously rejected by the class. The resoning is that the boat is accessible to pretty much anyone, it is easy to sail but very hard to master and responds well to a lot of time in the boat. It was felt that adding an assymetric to the boat would put it out of reach of most of the current ownership (which is growing nicely). This does not preclude people who wish to play though.

 

In fairness though Jeffers this was the only boat I have heard of that had the asym fitted properly. Would it not be wise to revisit it now the hull is epoxy? May be a smaller Kite? It certainly wouldn't cost much to add a 'Kite pack' that would be attainable by the current membership. IMHO I think a trick really is being missed by the Blaze as other boats that have converted are not the best.

IC :- from those that I have spoken too 'On a club course they are dangerous as you can not see to leward from the sliding seat.' In translation what was meant by this statement was that you can not run up and down the side if the boat to change your viewing angle as you can with a trapeze boat.

Vortex :- Has a habit of nose diving (please correct me if I am wrong) but certainly the complication of a trapeze.

Vareo :- Damn hard work upwind but a real blast downhill

Are there any other active classes out there?

An asymmetric Blaze would not only be fun uphill and down but is a simple stable hiking platform to work from learn with.

And how would it not benefit in the same way with rewarding time in the boat. Surely Upwind technique would remain with the added new tactical gains and losses to be made finding the shifts and pressure downwind.

Hey it could even be put up for the Olympic heavyweight class in the future



Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 10:26am
Well if we'd listened to "The Class" sailboards would never have had
footstraps fitted.

They listened to the Mistral class about the introduction of the Hybrid
Prodigy, they rejected it, now the Pryde RSX is the Olympic board and no-
one sails Mistral anymore.

Having experienced first hand the difficulties involved in a beach
unfriendly design like the MPS, yet still yearning for the thrill and
challenge single handing a spinnaker driven boat, it seems like a
commercial no brainer to me.

I'd also be inclined to put a wire option, seems to me an easy way onto
the wire with those racks for lightweights to get out that little bit further
if the breeze permits.

I fancy one anyway, I just need to ask our local Blaze jockey why he
dumped it in favor of a contender, which he's been out in all of twice this
season. I seem to recall he said he found it tricky, but then he's from oop
North they find everything tricky


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 10:58am

Paul etc

The rights and tooling are owned by Cirrus but we work very closely with the CA who are totally independent.  The ultimate design rights are owned by others but we now have an agreement in place to purchase them.  The Blaze has a very successful niche of its own and sales are still expanding (16 already delivered and 3 more in production since March) but the CA is rightly cautious about changing a successful formula (if it aint broke don't 'repair' it !) .... we agree with them btw.  The changes we have made to date are to do with refinement under CA guidance and both the CA and Cirrus have been careful to ensure that 'new' boats do not totally outclass early ones - it is still identical hulls, foils, spars, sails - you really can buy an old Blaze, give it loads of tlc and maybe a new sail and get right up there.  

Cirrus are however investigating derivatives particularly for sales overseas.  As is widely known we are developing a 'big guys' version that will have a rather innovative rig on it but use 'all Blaze' below the boom - if launched in the UK it will be aimed exclusively at larger helms and will have the power for them.  This will feature a taller, rotational mast and the current favorite is an imported Ozzi 'wing section' that is overrotated with a larger fat-head sail.   This will be stepped on the boat in the next two weeks and a first development sail will follow very quickly.  In other words we are going for high efficiency as well as a larger sailplan - I have raced both boards and Tasars in the past and am totally convinced that improved sail shape whether via camber inducers or over-rotation of the right section is an under-exploited area for general dinghy use.

Anyway - Spinnakers .... Yes these have been tried on the basic boat.  They work very well but yes the 3000 one is a tad on the ambitious side - but we have some better photos of that one !!  The question is not whether it can be done but if there is a real market for it beyond a small band of forumites - same as any new idea here.  I really like the Musto skiff myself in this part of the market and think it is the best of what it does - and there are plenty of other similar classes out there already as well.  A Blaze spinnaker variant would not be in the same area of the market but would of course be fun to develop and to race but we are not sure there is sufficient potential in the UK for it as a commercial proposition.  A '100' variant on the other hand is aiming at a different, and for us, new market and potential new group of owners - and so might be the right platform at some point .... in the future.  (and we do not give too too much away in forums until ready !).  One step at a time for now - many a builder has rushed to market far too quickly and perhaps a few have lived to regret it in the past 20 years. 

Blaze720 (aka Cirrus Raceboats)

GRF - Why not give the MPS another go ?  Tricky.... perhaps but it would seem to fit your broad requirements pretty well and as with everything time in the boat is the key.  ... or perhaps something like small high performance cat with spinni - Shadow (?). You are welcome to try a Blaze but I'm not sure it is what you are after.    

 

 

 



Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 10:59am

If your going for a hiking Una sailed boat GRF having tried most   the 300 is the only hiker that rewards soooo much. Simple no fiddly wings to play with or too many bits of string to play with and rigging to get right. And you can even reef it when it gets silly windy. Yes they can be tricky beasts but due to there lack of weight and manouverability they are sooo much fun in the waves  With the tippy dagerboard thingy they are easy to get on and off the beach too.

Try one you may well be surprsed



Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 12:44pm
Why not develop a kite kit and give the option??  Surely this is a low cost option and gives the Blaze as a brand a huge ammount of versatility??  It worked bloody well for the Vortex (An assy kit i think is about a grand)  That means you could pick up an old blaze say £1500 - 2 buy an assy kit £1000 and have a vareo alternative that actually does up wind?  or am i talking garbage again??

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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 12:54pm
There were no MPS's in the round Sheppey ask yourself why not when
Whitstable is just down the coast.

I will not ride anything, board, boat without a retracting centreboard for
lots and lots of reasons.

I love the visual appeal of the MPS and joking aside I really like a lot of
the guys over at Whitstable who evangelise them. If I lived there and
sailed from that club maybe I'd give one another try, but I dont and too
often I've been in the company of someone off the water with a snapped
mast head.

Nor do lots of others in South Coast locations or Lakes with shallows, or
tidal rivers.

Its why the whole Assym Skiff thing stalled. It's all very well for some
Aussie Guru to crack on about not needing a retracting CB when all they
do is potter about in Sydney Harbour.

It's why both the RS500, and Alto attracted me.

Finally way better sailors than me were forced to give up the MPS and
even now Force 4-5 is it's very top end, even the Whitstable boys would
baulk at sailing from Hythe, and we enjoy it a bit if the winds over 20
knots, maybe because we're windsurfers, but talk to an old guard five oh
sailor and they'll tell you 20 knots and above is where the fun really
starts.

An MPS with a retracting CB and kick up Tiller might be a whole different
ball game, but as I'm sure they'll be quick to point out, that wouldn't be
an MPS.


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 1:17pm

the 700 has a kick up rudder and thats what im looking at getting next year. easier to launch and recover than the musto

 



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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 1:21pm

Some quicks thoughts:  The Blaze with kite is pretty close to what I was describing, although retro-fitting a kite system is never going to be as good as a purpose designed arrangement.  Also, the Blaze is already notorioulsy quick on a reach, so how much difference will the kite make.  Ideally, I would change the mainsail to be more optimised for upwind work, and leave the kite to get you the downwind performance.

See the Topcat for a kickup dagger rudder.



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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 1:25pm

Maybe take the jib off of this, move the forestay closer to the mast, perhaps reduce the size of the kite a little and give the hull small wings:



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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 1:51pm
It all to easy as an outsider to a class, to suggest adding spinnakers and making the boat faster, but at the end of the day very few of us would sail in the class regardless of changes made, so our comments are not that helpful.

How many times have the N12, Graduates, Ents discussed adding spinnakers, the answer is rather a lot, and in all cases the classes have preferred to stick with what they have got, and rightly so. The boat was never designed for a kite and while it might encourage a few outsiders into the class initially, long term it will loose all the original class stalwarts and the new blood will soon realise that they would have been better off buying something designed for the job.

The blaze has its place in the market and a healthy class association so leave them to it.

Regarding a hiking singlehander with kite, while it sounds interesting I'd be a little unsure as to the real performance gain. To get down to PYs of 950 you need to create an easily driven hull with a powerful rig, and this will only work if you have enough righting moment to balance the power which means large flares or wings. Now both are in existence in RS300 and Blaze but neither is able to get to PY of 950, and the addition of a kite isnt likely to get it there either as the hull shape is too displacement orientated. If you look at most boats slower than a Fireball, an assymetric spinnaker doesnt really give you a great benefit as you cant generally heat it up to really get the boat going and then sail sufficiently low downwind. If you want a singlehander that really goes well upwind and down then learn to trapeze, or learn to compromise and buy a standard Blaze or an RS300.


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 2:00pm
Why learn to compromise??  IMHO a assy kit for a blaze would make a great blasting boat.  But in that sense i am contradicting myself as it would be a compromise!  There would be no reason for ents etc. allowing spinnys, as there are already loads of boats that fill that market.  There is on the other hand very very few hiking single handed assy boats!

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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 2:07pm
Originally posted by hollandsd

the 700 has a kick up rudder and thats what im looking at getting next year. easier to launch and recover than the musto

 

Actually I think launching with a kick up rudder is harder than a dagger rudder.

With a pivoting blade raked right back there are huge leverage forces on the blade and stock and it's hard to steer and you can easily damage somthing.

With a dagger rudder you can steer very well with only a small amount of blade down.



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Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 2:43pm

I agree... as a 29er sailor and ex Musto owner I find the dagger type rudder a pain.

It all sounds like a great idea but standing at the back of a skiff struggling with a stuck blade as you approach a beech at warp speed isnt fun.

Having said that trying to sail with a kick up rudder that refuses to stay down isnt fun either.

So Rick... are you looking at getting a different rudder to go on your skiff, or a 700 to go with your new rudder?



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by ifoxwell

I agree... as a 29er sailor and ex Musto owner I find the dagger type rudder a pain.

It all sounds like a great idea but standing at the back of a skiff struggling with a stuck blade as you approach a beech at warp speed isnt fun.

Having said that trying to sail with a kick up rudder that refuses to stay down isnt fun either.

So Rick... are you looking at getting a different rudder to go on your skiff, or a 700 to go with your new rudder?

Try reading what I wrote ...



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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 3:47pm

when u launch with a kick up rudder you are still less likely to destroy it launching then with a dagger style, if you try to launch in surf and youur boat goes backwards onto the beach you can easily flick your ruder to one side and it will come up on a kick up style on a dagger it will just bugger up your transom, then the same for the landing, dagger style means if it sticks you lose your transom, with a kick up style, you will break a pin or  a peice of rope.

to me i think replacing a peice of rope or a pin is far easier than a hull.



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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: ifoxwell
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 3:47pm

Opps sorry.

Speed reading during a break at work...



Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 3:50pm
blaze type boat with assy is a good concept IMO, but it should be developed from scratch, not as a bolt-on to the blaze.  The hiking element increases the 'accessibility' as turning corners in a singlehanded trap + assy boat is blooming tricky, and the plank on the IC/AC/DC seems to be a tricky skill to master - I tried once and had a huge laugh but also fell in a lot!

if you could narrow the water line of the blaze, give it some more rocker and lighten it off (I hear rumours they are ~80Kg hull weight which must surely be 'improvable'), while giving a similar mainsail configuration <~10m2> with single-line launch/hoist and drop assy then you'd be on a winner, don't know about whether the racks would need to be much wider, they look pretty wide to me already and you have a c'board and knock-up rudder on the boat already so no worries with estuary or pond sailing either.


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 3:51pm

basically a magnum 8 moth with an assymetric?

 



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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 3:53pm

Originally posted by craiggo


How many times have the N12, Graduates, Ents discussed adding spinnakers, the answer is rather a lot, and in all cases the classes have preferred to stick with what they have got, and rightly so. The boat was never designed for a kite and while it might encourage a few outsiders into the class initially, long term it will loose all the original class stalwarts and the new blood will soon realise that they would have been better off buying something designed for the job.

If all classes had followed that mantra then the Fireball would have no trapeze and spinnaker, a N12 would still weigh 100kgs (or what ever it used to be) and a Merlin Rocket would still be a Merlin and flying a tiny tiny kite with no pole inside the forestay.

Everything should move on ... even the Laser now has XD controls...

It's just a matter of managing the process.



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Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by hollandsd

when u launch with a kick up rudder you are still less likely to destroy it launching then with a dagger style, if you try to launch in surf and youur boat goes backwards onto the beach you can easily flick your ruder to one side and it will come up on a kick up style on a dagger it will just bugger up your transom, then the same for the landing, dagger style means if it sticks you lose your transom, with a kick up style, you will break a pin or  a peice of rope.

to me i think replacing a peice of rope or a pin is far easier than a hull.

I think you are wrong ...

At the 1999 (I think) RS200 Nationals held off Weymouth beach (the far end with steep shingle) we came back in one day and a nasty shore break had developed whilst we were on the water. Many boats got damaged coming in; the main failure was to the moulding holding the pintles; this was caused by the rudders being levered up against the surf. The LDC team I believe repaired over 20 boats over night so no-one lost any racing; hats of to them for that.

The other case I have seen of wide spread transom/rudder damage was at the Fireball worlds in Durban in 1994. We had to launch through full on surf, just down the beach they were surfing!!

The boats that had fixed rudders had "no" problems just sailed out through the breakers then put their rudders on; some of those with lifting blades broke blades and transoms either as a result of the boat getting battered backwards and the rudder slamming to full lock and causing damage or through too heavy handed steering snapping the blades. We had a lifting blade and left it in the boat and sailed out rudderless.

A dagger rudder is a lot less liable to breaking the blade and the transom and is easier to steer with when not fully lowered; plus it's a firmer hold when sailing.

 



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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:11pm
I disagree Rick,

The N12 and Merlin Rocket have evolved, they are lighter, more refined but in general the same type of boat they always were.

Putting an assymetric spinnaker on a non-spinnaker boat is more of a step change and likely to cause the class more problems.

I think its safe to say that, refinement is an output of restricted classes, development is an output of development classes.

Now to my knowledge the Blaze has never been development class !



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:16pm

Originally posted by craiggo

I disagree Rick,

The N12 and Merlin Rocket have evolved, they are lighter, more refined but in general the same type of boat they always were.

Putting an assymetric spinnaker on a non-spinnaker boat is more of a step change and likely to cause the class more problems.

I think its safe to say that, refinement is an output of restricted classes, development is an output of development classes.

Now to my knowledge the Blaze has never been development class !

So, the Fireball adding kite & spinnaker wasn't a step change?

What about the N12 going double bottomed?

Plenty examples of a class making a step change in it's rules ...



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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:18pm

Then craiggo why are they developing a new boat off the back of the existing hull??  It will in essence be a new class, so why not offer an assy kit which would make it another arm of the same class.  Much like the Vortex and the IC. 

Why would it cause problems for a class, if it is genuinely a bolt on/off option??



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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:18pm

Getafix

Blaze Weight ..... yup there are some heavier early boats out there but plenty of light ones ... as in many other SMOD classes if you bother to weight them (we have !).   Older hulls can put on a few kg but much of this can be removed by improving hull ventilation. We did weight all entrants at one of the bigger meetings (and their hulls) in 2008 and we think it is something a few other SMOD classes might like to consider.

I've selected individual hulls from other SMOD manufacturers as a punter in the past and I know plenty of others who have done the same. Cirrus decided this was not an acceptable way forward ourselves as it is a complete pain to 'manage' and it always leaves the suspician that YOU might get 'a clunker'.  It is so much easier if every buyer is certain that they have an identical chance as far as new equipment goes that is. 

The Blaze is weighted with centreboard in and all lines and fittings and the CA minimum is 72kg - nothing special.  We quickly switched to Epoxy to allow Rondar to easily build below weight and then bond in correctors up to this minimum.  The minor variations you get with epoxy and the greater variation you can get with polyester in hull weight are simply removed if you build/supply this way.

This is with wings .... 2.5m width does come at some weight cost but it does give the Blaze its 'go' whenever there is a decent breeze!   Take them off, leave out the centreboard and corrector weights and we could claim a daftly low weight  !  Incidentally the 100 will have an identical hull BUT the minimum weight can be lower and still allow us to net out any build variations.  

All makers can claim lighter weights but get the everyday production SMOD on the scales whenever you get a chance and check a few claims out for yourself. 

Cheers - Blaze720  

 

 

 



Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:28pm

Originally posted by turnturtle

MikeBz- you send some very confusing messages.... why bother posting
a pic of the Blaze when you have no intentions to add a kite, even as an
optional out of class extra?

I really like the look of what's been done there and only wished that the
option was properly available when I bought the Phantom.   I still miss
the kite from the 200, Vareo etc and the only reason for selling the MPS
was because TOW was too limited to get my circus skills up to scratch...
hence a Phantom, it'll keep me sailing until something more appropriate
hits the market.

if someone's prepared to take the bull by horns and develop a
singlehanded hiking asymmetric; add some upwind leverage with carbon
racks (I agree with Simon Payne on the metal bars thing) then I'd be damn surprised if it's not a popular new boat option.

Think this concept... B14 singlehander and you're about there. No
dumbing down in FRP and 'versatile' marketing campaigns (in other
words, no nasty plastic beach boat with racing upgrades...) just a balls-
out hiking blast-fest with an asymmetric that can actually get around a
club course to its handicap.... can't be that hard.

regarding dagger foils... know what you mean about the MPS Ian, it's a
tight slot and I pro-lubbed the foils before every sail. But that's the price
you pay for not having geysers come up through the gasket like a sh*tty
laser or something.

 

Well said James.  Something like the Mx ray that was a rapid hiking machine upwind.  I would love an MPS but i just dont have the time or if i'm honest the patients to learn how to get the most from it.  I would love a single handed hiking boat thats as fast as a 300 up wind, with the vareo blast factor down.  I thought as a cheap alternative would be a blaze bolt on kit!!



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:54pm
The trouble with cheap alternatives is that they very rarely work well, or else they have big consequences. I well remember Paul Bieker saying, about the 14s, "everyone said 2 strings would be a great way to go faster: then we all got to chuck our hulls".

One of the most interesting lessons from the decision of the ICs to free up hull shape and reduce minimum weight is that already, with the first generation of boats, the spinnaker free boats seem to have gained nearly as much peformance boost round the track as the ACs get from 20-23 sqm of spinnaker.

It would seem that in order to get a singlehander to be PY950 round the track with a kite it would need to be 970 or better without one. That's a good lump faster than an RS300 for instance. You're probably talking about a boat that is in the area of a 16foot RS300...


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by hollandsd


when u launch with a kick up rudder you are still less likely to destroy it
launching then with a dagger style, if you try to launch in surf and youur
boat goes backwards onto the beach you can easily flick your ruder to one
side and it will come up on a kick up style on a dagger it will just bugger
up your transom, then the same for the landing, dagger style means if it
sticks you lose your transom, with a kick up style, you will break a pin or 
a peice of rope.


to me i think replacing a peice of rope or a pin is far easier than a
hull.



I think you are wrong ...



 



Rick, seriously, you should come over some time and show us.

Like Doddsy, he's on his 2nd broken mast now, coming ashore I think it
was last time, going back to pull the rudder up before he landed, whilst
riding a short steep dumpy wave...

We dont say this stuff for effect, it's because it's what it is.

I didn't give a perfectly good MPS back because I wanted to make some
sort of stupid point, I did it before I broke it in similar fashion to Charlie
the last time we sailed together and he ran aground.

Nothing we'd love more over in Hythe but to run a fleet of those things,
then come over there and thrash your sorry asses, particularly Reynolds
like we used to in the old windsurf days. How is he by the way? Hopefully
on the mend.

But they simply aint practical beach tools.

ANd even though you might accuse me of not listening, I did and learned
loads off you guys, and seriously no-one tries harder to do stuff than me
and I threw body and soul into mastering that thing for the best part of
two seasons.

So and back on topic given this thread was originally about Devoti and a
rumoured single hander.

Me, 67kgs sailing on the coast, I want what I want, as soon as I see it I'll
buy it, right now the only thing that appears to come close is once again
not available to me, how typically dinghy sailing is that?


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 4:58pm
how can i be wrong, its far easier to kick up a rudder then lift it out, in a shore break you simply dont have time to lift a rudder out and you lose controll when you do. Atleast with a kick up rudder you can realease it and forget it as will kick up when you beach the boat.

-------------
Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 5:06pm
Has it occoured to you to get your rudder up before you get into the shore break?

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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 5:08pm
if you do that then you have no directional controll when a huge wave comes over and tries to spin your boat side on to the waves. you need control when you land, its essential where we sail to get the boat up the beach and out of the surf asap.

-------------
Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Has it occoured to you to get your rudder up before
you get into the shore break?


Exactly what he did I gather, then broached sideways, best ask a fellow
skiffer you'll believe him whereas you're not likely to take it from us.


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 5:16pm
Like the SI in the 4000 who snapped his centre plate, a very good helm.

sh*t like that just happens in shore dumps.

Not to mention the small grit that jams the plate down, or wont let you get
the plate down to steer just when you need to foot off to get over the next
breaking wave..


Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 5:43pm

Mixed messages .... ?

Don't see contradiction really - we are not changing the current Blaze unless the CA and vast majority of owners wanted it.  It is their CA and Cirrus would be foolish in the extreme to impose change or change the style of racing while they are buying more and more boats.  

However we are developing a new class, working title is 'Blaze 100' based around the Blaze hull to keep costs and risks to builder and early buyers low - it will not be an equalised Blaze or even be called a Blaze when finished.  This allows us to consider a different overall package and that might well mean a second sail - if the target market wants it and more critically is prepared to pay for it.  Only trials will tell us for sure.  The focus is initially on offering an ultra efficient and highly refined mast'/sail combination and then we will see ...  Whatever we do the performance is intended to be higher and it will be optimised towards the heavier helm.  

We of course do what our current and potential customers want but the standard Blaze is still establishing itself after the change in direction (and builder).  It is still untried by the vast majority of helms who race singlehanders for example - something we need to change with the CA.  We therefore still have a massive job to do and our business model is based upon lower 'marketing spend' and much more 'word of mouth' and 'try one' - even closer to traditional CA classes than most modern SMOD practice.    So if you have not tried one - ask. 

There is something for everyone out there just about - at least in the UK.  Any new offering has to be judged very carefully especially in the current economic environment and not all great ideas make it.  If you are interested in what we Cirrus are doing however why not get in direct contact ?   We will be running demonstrations / trials in the next few months and do respond to feedback.  

In summary - If enough want it and are prepared to back 'want' with money it generally gets done so we are always happy to talk as with the group who approached us about a tentative '100' (maybe off the forum though !).  However the dinghy market can be a fickle friend and the case for a new variant or SMOD class has to be very convincing and these days perhaps be as applicable beyond the UK.  There are one or two niches we are looking at currently ........

Blaze 720 (aka Cirrus)



Posted By: Paul B
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by Guest#260


Actually I think launching with a kick up rudder is harder than a dagger rudder.


Well you would say that wouldn't you Rick!!!

It wouldn't acutally bother me either way which rudder system a boat had, but it's depth might be more of an issue.  The 700 rudder is straight off the 200, so is quite small.  Even so I go to great lengths to ensure it doesn't budge an inch once down (use of Herzog rope and lots of wing nut tension), and conseuqently I think if I ran aground at any speed, it would do a fair amount of damage to blade, hull or both.

Ultimately, it's hardly a decision making factor in a boat....



Posted By: Ian29937
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 8:16pm

Originally posted by Paul B

Originally posted by Guest#260


Actually I think launching with a kick up rudder is harder than a dagger rudder.


Well you would say that wouldn't you Rick!!!

It wouldn't acutally bother me either way which rudder system a boat had, but it's depth might be more of an issue.  The 700 rudder is straight off the 200, so is quite small.  Even so I go to great lengths to ensure it doesn't budge an inch once down (use of Herzog rope and lots of wing nut tension), and conseuqently I think if I ran aground at any speed, it would do a fair amount of damage to blade, hull or both.

Ultimately, it's hardly a decision making factor in a boat....

Sorry to disagree with you Paul, but sailing in the Wash (high tidal flow, very shallow shelving beach's), the ability to have some control at all time when launching and recovering is pretty important. The use of a dagger style rudder is a real no-no.  On my 700 I've even put on a plastic downhaul cleat to minimise damage if I do get it wrong.

Ian

RS700 GBR960

http://www.sail4cancer.org - www.sail4cancer.org



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

[ to minimise damage if I do get it wrong.

Wait until you see the damage when your plastic cleat goes wrong at speed and if the stock or blade doesn't smash you rip the transom apart...


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:16pm
how can a plastic cleat go wrong? if it uncleats there should always be enough resistance in the stock to stop it popping up of its own accord, and it will snap or slip if it hits something?

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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:21pm
GRF, if always handicap racing, there is nothing to stop you getting a Blaze and doing the same mods as were done on the boat pictured, if that would give you a great boat for sailing off the beach. From what I've seen and sailed of Blazes inland, they could well be ideal, assuming you could live without a trapeze. Mind you, at approx 10 3/4 stone I felt quite small in a breze even with the one sail.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:35pm
Originally posted by Rupert

GRF, if always handicap racing, there is nothing to stop
you getting a Blaze and doing the same mods as were done on the boat
pictured, if that would give you a great boat for sailing off the beach. From
what I've seen and sailed of Blazes inland, they could well be ideal, assuming
you could live without a trapeze. Mind you, at approx 10 3/4 stone I felt
quite small in a breze even with the one sail.


Well I have to say it's got me thinking about it.


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 9:39pm
Do it Grumpf, i would think it would be fairly easy to convert! 200 pole? possible even 200 kite?

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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 10:41pm

GRF

If you are launching and recovering through sizeable surf on a regular basis I would not go for a Blaze or much similar, at least at first, winged boats are going to be potential trouble in such conditons.  Fine once you are out but you have to get out and back !  (Don't mind selling the replacement wings and masts though ;-)

Try one if you want but if it is an occasional alternative to 2 person boats why not simply go for a Laser ?  Nice, simple, cheap and pretty robust.  Yes I know they have limitations but you can always move on later.  Either that or keep up the board sailing when the crew decides 1) relatives 2) DIY 3) ill / hangover 4) 'holiday' 5) ' work'   6) better things to do.

Blaze720       

 



Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 10:51pm
I can't wait to see the response to that....

grumpf, when you are clueless, sorry crewless,  you are always welcome to call on my considerable weight and experience....

But why not give serious thought to a contender?  It is an excellent sea boat as plenty on here will testify.  There are lots of grumpy old men in the class, so you would fit in really well, and even girlies like me can sail one.

 






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the same, but different...



Posted By: neilw
Date Posted: 17 Nov 08 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by ifoxwell

Rumor has it that they are working on a hiking single hander with a spinni...

Has any one seen anything of it yet or know any more about it?

Ian

Back to the original post. Joachim Harpprecht has the http://lightskiff.de/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=14&Itemid=27 - Light Skiff  on his website.....OK it's not a hiking single hander but the boat has been seen at Grafham I believe.

Could be the source of this rumour given that there is a link between Joachim Harpprecht  and Devoti.



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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 8:31am
Having sailed boats with both rudder systems, I have to say it doesnt really make much odds which system you use.

On a dagger rudder boat pulling it up about 6-12 inches will give you enough steering control while reducing draft to well below knee level. On the RS swinging rudder just loosen the wingnut before you come in and pull the downhaul line out of the cleat.

Anyway getting back to the original post, where is the evidence that a singlehanded hiking assy is under development ?


Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 9:08am

Have I missed something? (most probably). Why is Blaze 720 developing a fat mans boat when we already have the Phantom and now the Rooster"extra big" Laser? Surely this is the ideal oppertunity to put a kite on the Blaze as well as a bigger main and rename it as a new class. Otherwise what would difference be? Now a Blaze with a kite going faster than a 300 I would certain be most interested provided it was as elegant to handle.



Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 9:13am

Originally posted by Paul B

Originally posted by Guest#260


Actually I think launching with a kick up rudder is harder than a dagger rudder.


Well you would say that wouldn't you Rick!!!

It wouldn't acutally bother me either way which rudder system a boat had, but it's depth might be more of an issue.  The 700 rudder is straight off the 200, so is quite small.  Even so I go to great lengths to ensure it doesn't budge an inch once down (use of Herzog rope and lots of wing nut tension), and conseuqently I think if I ran aground at any speed, it would do a fair amount of damage to blade, hull or both.

Ultimately, it's hardly a decision making factor in a boat....

Given the choice I'd choose a fixed rudder, then a dagger and last on the list a lifting rudder. Unless I sailed in a location where I am likley to run aground at sted then lifting is top of the list.



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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 9:40am
OK.
Without doubt the best and fastest all round any condition single hander,
a Racing Sailboard, (had I used one Round Sheppey I would have won and
probably beaten the cat to the Island record, no question.)is getting to
physical for me these days, hence my initial 'retirement' to a Musto Skiff.

Now I may be getting on a bit and not firing on all cyclinders, but a
Laser?
Sailings equivalent to the mobility scooter, nah not just yet thanks.

Primarily I enjoy sailing the Alto and have the expense of a new one
coming up, but my man doesn't like sailing in the winter, and I need the
practice, so I want something that behaves like my Alto, i.e. uses angles
downwind and a kite.

I was on the verge of the Vario, but have been put off by the bad press,
knowing my luck, I'd get TT's two part hulk re glued.

A blaze has put in an appearance and not lasted long at the club of
dreams as had the 300 and I note along with the two contenders we now
boast, they only go out in fair weather to enjoy their period in irons.

So there is once more, nothing that fits my particular bill as a buy it and
sail it option.

It doesn't matter if you have sailed both rudder systems, unless you've
sailed off our beach, it's pointless talking about it, just accept that over
the years lots of boats that evolved to sea and coastal use went down the
path of retracting centreboard and kick up rudder. Modern Skiffyness put
paid to all that and sailboats co incidently began dissappearing from the
coastal clubs, co incidence or not?


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 10:04am

Agree with several of the points made about what would be needed in a new boat..

Upwind performance not far off a 300 - around the track sub 100 PY - race fireballs / 400s etc respectably - jim points out the issues of going faster, really narrow on the w/l and loads of leverage: The 300 was really a 14ft magnum 5 - and I would think (although it sounds good to me!) a kite on a 300 style boat might be step too far for any sensible sized market!!

Proper high quality racer, probably epoxy, centreboard and lifting rudder. Not too out and out skiffy - wants to be a delight in the light and shifty - like the 300. Mainsheet well forward.

At least shrouds and spreaders for downwind, but emulate the upwind look of the 300 - or mabe a lowish forestay for some rig control.

Leverage means rubular wings or moulded wings (think EPS, but pretty)- the latter would be really comfortable, but the B14 and Blaze use tubes - are these comfortable enough?

70-95kg sailors - plenty of lightweights boats and Finn, Phantom, Blaze100 above that.

Personally I prefer performance equalisation of some sort - wings could slide - or you could have differing size sails - or Iso style detachable wings - 2 groups - the 600 made that work?

Above all, has to look great - bit of boat park pride always sends you home with a warm feeling!

going back to Ians original post - I do know that Luca Devoti is developing a new singlehander - not seen a piccy, but I'm sure it will be in the public domain soon.

Equally it seems there is an appetite for a boat along these lines - I certainly thought so after going down most of a (very wild) run sitting on the wing of my 700 the other day! Mind you not going to hang up my harness any time soon.

 

 



-------------
Nick




Posted By: Inland sea
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 10:17am

Interesting post Nick ... is this as you personaly saying "there is an appetite" or you as director of LDC?

Are we getting a scoop in that you are thinking about filling this gap in the market?



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RS300 426 18' SkiffTango Musto 051
B14 644


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:02am

Always been interested personally - for years while tolley-dollying for the kids I'd jump in the 700 - make a muppet of myself and think I need toestraps and to stay on the side! But the downsides to most hiking singlehanders is pace upwind.

Sorry, not meaning to slyly give a "scoop" from RS. We have several times looked at a boat like this - but its a very big step do a new boat these days. Always interested in opinion from this forum - and all keen sailors - it all helps to mould future plans.

 



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Nick




Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:11am

Originally posted by G.R.F.

...unless you've sailed off our beach, it's pointless talking about it...

I have sailed off your beach and a number of other steep nasty beaches, there is not doubt it's not a very user friendly place to launch and I admit I'd think twice about launching my MPS off that beach in some of the more unpleasant weather ... I'd get my Laser out on such days; probably with the Radial rig is it was very windy.

Just because some craft are not as suitable for you beach dosn't make them design flawed; it just means they are less suitable for your launching area than perhaps other designs.



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Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:20am
Come on Nick, get to that drawing board and sort us all out, i would love to sail something that ticked all those boxes!! 

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Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:33am

This talk of a single handed hiking boat with kite has got me thinking again.

There appears to be quite a few manufacturers who seem interested, or have at least identified a potential gap in the market. Rather than making rival products, which reduce potential fleet numbers (e.g. ISO v L4000, MPS v 700), wouldn't it be great if they got together and agreed a general set of parameters for a new class? Lets say 4m long, 1m waterline beam, 1.8m max beam, hull weight 60kg, sail area 8sqm (and 8sqm kite), no carbon in the hull or foils, RRP £7k, built from female moulds. The numbers are made up of the top of my head, but you get the gist.

That way, each manufacturer could develop a boat, but it would race within a class, rather than just be a seperate SMOD. I suppose the nearest model to what I'm imagining is the Formula 18 cats. In my opinion the biggest advantages SMODs have is not the (fallacy of a) level playing field, but the ease of purchase and ownership they offer and the fact that they can sacrifice some performance for ease of use. The downsides of a SMOD include the fact that they outdate and can be lacking in refinement. Making updates to a SMOD is a difficult and sometimes unpopular process.

So, my thinking is that each manufacturer could launch a SMOD that fits within the basic rules. The sailor would buy their preferred boat and could not then alter it - much like a SMOD. Person A might buy the Cirrus design, person B the RS one and person C the Devoti design. Every two years, on the 1st March (just in time for the Dinghy Show) the manufacturers could release new designs, in the hope of geetting back to the front of the fleet.

This would allow the sailors to keep sailing a class that evolves with technology and would allow the manufacturers to keep refreshing their product range - a win/win situation. It would encourage class stalwarts to buy new boats regularly and provide a good source of second hand boats.

Could such an idea be workable?



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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:45am
Genius


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:51am

That sounds a great idea, the Y&Y forum singlehander. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:53am
Originally posted by dics

Have I missed something? (most probably). Why is Blaze 720 developing a fat mans boat when we already have the Phantom and now the Rooster"extra big" Laser? Surely this is the ideal oppertunity to put a kite on the Blaze as well as a bigger main and rename it as a new class. Otherwise what would difference be? Now a Blaze with a kite going faster than a 300 I would certain be most interested provided it was as elegant to handle.



Dics

You are missing the point here. Whilst YOU (and a limited number of others) might want a Blaze with a kite (and there is nothing stopping you buying one and putting a kite on it) the majority (almost unanimously at the AGM where it was last discussed) voted no. Try sailing one in a good breeze you do not want or need a kite, the boat flies without it!

As for the 'Fat boy Blaze' there is a gap. Phantoms are like hens teeth and to get a good one you are looking at spending upwards of £4.5k for a competitive boat plus they are still a huge handful when it gets breezy (needing stupid amounts of vang and rake upwind and needing to let the vang off each time you tack). You can pick up a good Mk 1 Blaze for around £1,500 then just buy the bigger rig (probably around £1k). Having sailed a Blaze for 2 years I loved the boat but had to give it up for personal reasons. At some point in the future I will step back in to one. Were the class to adopt an assymetric I probably would not.


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Merlinboy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 11:54am
Sounds liek a bit of an arms race to me Chew?  I like the idea of buying a new boat and it not been out classed for its life in my ownership.  Been there done that with the 14.

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Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Nick Peters

Always been interested personally - for years while
tolley-dollying for the kids I'd jump in the 700 - make a muppet of myself
and think I need toestraps and to stay on the side! But the downsides to
most hiking singlehanders is pace upwind.


Sorry, not meaning to slyly give a "scoop" from RS. We have several times
looked at a boat like this - but its a very big step do a new boat these days.
Always interested in opinion from this forum - and all keen sailors - it all
helps to mould future plans.


 



How would such a boat be different to your Vareo?

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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 12:32pm
its a good idea i think to have a multi design class, each boat could have a handicap within the class depending on its design era and then as the new boats get faster you could change the handicap so they are on par witht the older designs? then each boat could have a seperate handiap for handicap racing and the older designs would be as competitive in the racing as new ones?

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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Chew my RS

<FONT face=Helv size=2>

This talk of a single handed hiking boat with kite has got me thinking
again.


There appears to be quite a few manufacturers who seem interested,
or have at least identified a potential gap in the market. Rather than
making rival products, which reduce potential fleet numbers (e.g. ISO v
L4000, MPS v 700), wouldn't it be great if they got together and agreed a
general set of parameters for a new class? Lets say 4m long, 1m waterline
beam, 1.8m max beam, hull weight 60kg, sail area 8sqm (and 8sqm kite),
no carbon in the hull or foils, RRP £7k, built from female moulds. The
numbers are made up of the top of my head, but you get the gist.


That way, each manufacturer could develop a boat, but it would race
within a class, rather than just be a seperate SMOD. I suppose the nearest
model to what I'm imagining is the Formula 18 cats. In my opinion the
biggest advantages SMODs have is not the (fallacy of a) level playing field,
but the ease of purchase and ownership they offer and the fact that they
can sacrifice some performance for ease of use. The downsides of a
SMOD include the fact that they outdate and can be lacking in refinement.
Making updates to a SMOD is a difficult and sometimes unpopular
process.


So, my thinking is that each manufacturer could launch a SMOD that
fits within the basic rules. The sailor would buy their preferred boat and
could not then alter it - much like a SMOD. Person A might buy the Cirrus
design, person B the RS one and person C the Devoti design. Every two
years, on the 1st March (just in time for the Dinghy Show) the
manufacturers could release new designs, in the hope of geetting back to
the front of the fleet.


This would allow the sailors to keep sailing a class that evolves with
technology and would allow the manufacturers to keep refreshing their
product range - a win/win situation. It would encourage class stalwarts to
buy new boats regularly and provide a good source of second hand boats.


Could such an idea be workable?



That's pretty much what drove the windsurf racing model over the years.

A restricted class to certain measurements with sail and board builders
vying for the front of the fleet and jockeys 'assisted' to stay there, it
worked up until the point it became 'Unlimited'.


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 12:55pm
And it seems to work in F18 too.  As you say, it is important that the rules remain focused and are not slackened off over they years to gain extra performance at the expense of cost and difficulty.

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http://www.sailns14.org - http://www.sailns14.org - The ultimate family raceboat now available in the UK


Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:05pm

Phil - James is right - although he is a bit brutal on the Vareo. the Vareo is great at what it does - but it is restricted by leverage (I know someone who put wings on a Vareo and went up 2 gears upwind as you would expect). It retails for £4995 - what James describes would probably be same price as 700 / MPS.

the package is pretty good - we sold 44 last year! But if you want to be quick upwind as well as down - you need less weight, narrower w/l and more leverage.

 

 



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Nick




Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:12pm
I recall posting on the need for a 'box rule' in a similar thread some time back.... in fairness, I think Mr Peters hits on one of the main issues with this type of boat

"But the downsides to most hiking singlehanders is pace upwind."

....not easily solved without a pretty deep board and a decent high-aspect sail/wing, which then means you need plenty of leverage (e.g wings) to get the whole thing to work....

Getting downwind quick is not as challenging (in terms of developed technologies/techniques) but still presents some issues which designers would need to overcome, not least of which to make something usable across a wide wind range and across a range of water types and sizes...

Trimaran singlehander (e.g. Weta) not appealing, as most of us like monohulls and they take up much less space in boat parks as long as the wings 'fold or retract'.

Perhaps in a lot of ways, the foiling moth is off on the right path, but it's too tweaky for many mortals and 75Kg+ guys will not be competitive as it is, scaling it up may provide a stop-gap but it's a pig to launch and not too suitable to smaller or confined bits of water as turning corners is not as easy as without the hydrofoils.

We have a pool of very decent design and building talent in this country, it would be very exciting to see what they came up with!


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

it would be purpose built for racing Phil! At best the Vareo is beach boat
with some optional extras and some vareo owners have expressed their
concern at pushing the boat beyond its limits.

So here's my wish-list:

1) a stiff, epoxy hull reinforced with carbon at the shroud plates/forestay
mount...
2) add carbon racks to get a better righting moment and upwind planning
potential...
3) add tramps with built in pussy pads for ergonomics and you've got the
ultimate comfort for minimum weight, armchair racing on wednesday
nights!
4) lightweight rudder, not a lump of FRP mounted into a heavy, off the
shelf, seasure stock
4) swing keel for grumpfs...

Oh yes, and fundamentally ammend the rig to full carbon, (not alloy n
glass mix) add proper shrouds & lowers (adjustable as an optional extra)
and add a nice light carbon boom to ensure the gybes are even sweeter;
reduce the gennaker size or recut to flatter shape for higher angles,
although accepted, the racks would make a difference on righting
moment.

deposit's in the post Nick


ref no.4, to what do you refer?


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:20pm
James your basically describing an international canoe with wings instead of a sliding seat.

I just cant see any realistic way of making a sensible boat of this type that can hit a PY of 950. Remember your looking for something thats effectively got to be on the pace with a Fireball, Contender or Hornet without its spinnaker, thats one hell of a challenge not only to design but to sail.


Posted By: dics
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:24pm

Originally posted by jeffers


Dics

You are missing the point here. Whilst YOU (and a limited number of others) might want a Blaze with a kite (and there is nothing stopping you buying one and putting a kite on it) the majority (almost unanimously at the AGM where it was last discussed) voted no. Try sailing one in a good breeze you do not want or need a kite, the boat flies without it!

As for the 'Fat boy Blaze' there is a gap. Phantoms are like hens teeth and to get a good one you are looking at spending upwards of £4.5k for a competitive boat plus they are still a huge handful when it gets breezy (needing stupid amounts of vang and rake upwind and needing to let the vang off each time you tack). You can pick up a good Mk 1 Blaze for around £1,500 then just buy the bigger rig (probably around £1k). Having sailed a Blaze for 2 years I loved the boat but had to give it up for personal reasons. At some point in the future I will step back in to one. Were the class to adopt an assymetric I probably would not.

Thanks for enlightening me re the "fat boy boat" bit. Although I think the concept of a bigger rig is probably more thought out than just to make a cheap alternative to another class. Besides didn't the Blaze start off with a bigger rig?

Although on the other point I don't particularly want a Blaze with a kite, but a single handed hiker with a kite (not a vareo) that would be faster than a 300, and as Mike posted the Blaze picture, went on about the new rig it and the consensus here surely was a natural question. So no need to get on the defensive - I wasn't ME voting for the kite at the AGM. Also buying a boat and putting a kite on it is not really an answer. Call me old fashioned but when I buy a boat I also want to buy into the class and support it. Buying a boat and then making class illegal kind of goes against the grain for me.

 



Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:46pm
Originally posted by Nick Peters

But if you want to be quick upwind as well as down -
you need less weight, narrower w/l and more leverage.


 


 



Or a sliding mast foot base via a track...


Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:48pm

the only problem with that is the rig tension would cause problems in moving the mast, or moving the mast may cause problems in rig tension, most modern stayed boats run a fairly high rig tension....



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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:48pm
Originally posted by Nick Peters

Phil - James is right - although he is a bit brutal
on the Vareo. the Vareo is great at what it does - but it is restricted
by leverage (I know someone who put wings on a Vareo and went up 2
gears upwind as you would expect). It retails for £4995 - what James
describes would probably be same price as 700 / MPS.


the package is pretty good - we sold 44 last year! But if you want to be
quick upwind as well as down - you need less weight, narrower w/l and
more leverage.


 


 



I've been seriously considering a Vareo for some time, but keep getting
thrown by comments on forums...

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Posted By: Nick Peters
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 1:51pm

Planet turtle sounds about right to me...

GRF - I remember a sad day when I took my SB2 to the tip - I have regretted that loads since - I have a board now, but it is a short fat barn door which is about all I'm good for...

 



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Nick




Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 2:21pm

Originally posted by getafix

I recall posting on the need for a 'box rule' in a similar thread some time back.... in fairness, I think Mr Peters hits on one of the main issues with this type of boat

"But the downsides to most hiking singlehanders is pace upwind."

....not easily solved without a pretty deep board and a decent high-aspect sail/wing, which then means you need plenty of leverage (e.g wings) to get the whole thing to work....


Getting downwind quick is not as challenging (in terms of developed technologies/techniques) but still presents some issues which designers would need to overcome, not least of which to make something usable across a wide wind range and across a range of water types and sizes...

Trimaran singlehander (e.g. Weta) not appealing, as most of us like monohulls and they take up much less space in boat parks as long as the wings 'fold or retract'.

Perhaps in a lot of ways, the foiling moth is off on the right path, but it's too tweaky for many mortals and 75Kg+ guys will not be competitive as it is, scaling it up may provide a stop-gap but it's a pig to launch and not too suitable to smaller or confined bits of water as turning corners is not as easy as without the hydrofoils.

We have a pool of very decent design and building talent in this country, it would be very exciting to see what they came up with!

Like the RS300, then! Pretty much the same speed as a Fireball upwind, even in trapezing conditions.

You don't necessarily need a kite downwind to make life exciting. The 300 scares the willies out of me every time I bear away! By the way, the 300 could go a lot faster if we could prevent the nosediving when the breeze kicks up - perhaps a T foil? Wouldn't have to back off downwind then in a force 5+.

A foiler with a 10 sq m rig would be interesting too for those of us too heavy for an Int Moth...

Steve B

 

 



-------------
Steve B
RS300 411
D-Zero 11

https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
D-Zero page


Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 2:33pm

That blaze with the kite on was seriously quick. considering the boat looks like and weighs like it was a prototype to the ark it seriously shifted. it was faster than a very well sailed 400 downwind in a F4+ and blazes do go rather well upwind.

i think it was a great boat and was very well engineered and if you took the same rig, racks kite system and brought the hull up to date by narrowing it and reducing the weight i believe you would easily hit a py of 950.

also Nick said about racks on a vareo. i remember a very small guy at my club who is extremely clever, had a vareo, fitted wings on it and put a 200 (i think) kite on it which is smaller. that went like the clappers when it got going.



Posted By: Philsy
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 2:35pm
Maybe RS should consider producing racks for the Vareo to create, well, a
Vareo RS...

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Posted By: Jamesd
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by Steve411

You don't necessarily need a kite downwind to make life exciting.

totally agree. ive sailed many things from i14s and 49ers to mirrors and all of my most memorable experiences and the thing i enjoy the most is going downwind in a laser in big waves, and the freedom to run off by the lee or cut up on a broad reach.



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Nov 08 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

would aim for upwind performance
similar to a 300; reaching performance of a Blaze & downwind performance of Vareo....


Last time I watched, in most conditions the 300 easily had the legs of Blazes and Varos reaching and running.



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