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Favourite Photos

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=382
Printed Date: 09 Dec 22 at 12:09pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Favourite Photos
Posted By: JimC
Subject: Favourite Photos
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 12:42pm
Twelve foot skiff yesterday in breeze in Sydney Harbour at the Interdominions. This boat is Alex Vallings (C-tech ) Nuplex I believe.




Replies:
Posted By: Adam84
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 2:18pm
Wow, wot a pic wish id of been on that boat!!!


Posted By: Jamie
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 3:35pm

I want to know what happened when it splashed down again.

 



Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 3:50pm
http://www.skiff.org.nz/movies.htm - click "stagecoach 2"
probably that!

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Jamie

I want to know what happened when it splashed down again.


 



As Nuplex won the race I imagine they just kept going and flew off the next one.



Posted By: Adam84
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 4:01pm
Sweet!


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 9:08pm

to quote a phrase: "I want that one"

hardest boats in the world to sail, barefoot too, respect is due!



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: jimmywalsh
Date Posted: 13 Jan 05 at 11:44pm
The next day


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 12:17am

Nice one!



Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:08am
Ouch!, can i have a go?

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:52am
The big splash on the right must be where the helm / crew landed - 7m away from the back end of the boat...now that is fast...


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 9:30am
Originally posted by Adam84

Wow, wot a pic wish id of been
on that boat!!!


thought you ewnt to university??!!
'id of been'?

(only joking, beofre you fire one back!)

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 10:47am
what's ewnt mean!!!     'went'????
and beofre    is that by any chance an anogram of before?!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 7:55pm

er, wow.

Check out their very very groovy rudder, which has some pretty amazing features like the short chord at the point where it pierces the surface to reduce ccavitation at high speed.

I recon thats the most amazing foil I've seen since the hydrofoiling moths. I know what I'll be making for my next cherub rudder.



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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 10:14pm

ummm yeah... i understand that

im sorry lucy i havnt really a clue wat u just said, im not very knowledgeable on anything to do with sailing as a matter of fact. i can see that the rudder is a funky shape alright but i dont really get what it would do, much obliged if u could explain? (i know what cavitation is,i think, but not how the rope would stop it)



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Posted By: Jamie
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 10:42pm

I'm fairly sure that "short chord" is a reference to the width of the rudder at that point. - you will see the concave curve on the top of the rudder making it a shorter shord at that point. Nothing to do with rope.

Of course I may just have made a fool of myself there. 



Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 10:51pm

Chord is the straight line distance between the leading and trailing edges of a foil (or sail).  Cord is another name for rope!

 

 



Posted By: maxim
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 10:55pm
And could you possibly explain what cavitation is...
(I'm not a marine engineer)

Max


Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 11:19pm

Cavitation is the rapid formation and collapse of vapour pockets in a flowing liquid in regions of very low pressure. This most often happens when water boils at normal temperatures due to very low pressure on propeller blades. 

This doesn't happen on dinghy foils.



Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 11:37pm

I think when a rudder stalls, it's due to the water flow detatching and air being sucked down the low pressure side from the surface, and is called aeration, or something like that.

A dinghy's never going fast enough to boil the water, so cavitation is a commonly used misnomer in this case.

Quite a few classes have rudders with a narrow chord where they pierce the surface. The 470s have been doing it for years. Not sure it makes a huge difference, and it's quite a test of foil building to go making it narrower right at the point where it needs the most strength!

 



Posted By: Lucy Lee
Date Posted: 15 Jan 05 at 12:38am

Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

A dinghy's never going fast enough to boil the water, so cavitation is a commonly used misnomer in this case.

Ah, I can see you've never sailed a Cherub

Just kidding, I was completely wrong. It isn't cavitation but aeration. I rather like the fact they have a nice short foil at the surface piercing point and still keep pleanty of surface area under the water to make sure they can steer at Mach 10 (approx.)



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Fly Cherub!


Posted By: Barty
Date Posted: 16 Jan 05 at 9:22pm

The short chord limits the effects of ventilation.   When a wing or foil is working there is a low pressure and a high pressure side.  Now the low pressure like nothing better than to mix it up with the high pressure side.  Ventilation is when you have a foil operating at a medium (air, wter etc) interface, i.e. in the water right by the surface.  The low pressure flows up the foil to meet the air and equalise itself. When this happens you lose lift and you create drag.  Viewed from the rear (!), the rudder will have unequal water levels on each side.  This is the ventilation. 

The shorter the chord the less lift and hence less ventilation there can be and therefore the less drag.  If you don't put fences at the top of your rudder then you will just have to accept ventilation.  Rudders would work much better with longer chords lower down but the engineering (too much stress at the stock) stops this.

Btw the pressure differentials created across foils can mean that water boils and hence cavitates.



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Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 16 Jan 05 at 10:14pm

right its coming up to that dreaded time again, monday morning, so does anyone have a photo for the week about to start?
something to get me thru monday at least, i love looking at the pictures people post, it gets me looking 4ward to the weekend. i have a choice sit n do my ict projects thats like a massive part of the final grade or come on yachts n yaching, i think u can guess which wins

  



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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 6:44am
Originally posted by sailor.jon

right its coming up to that dreaded time again, monday morning, so does anyone have a photo for the week about to start?
something to get me thru monday at least, i love looking at the pictures people post, it gets me looking 4ward to the weekend. i have a choice sit n do my ict projects thats like a massive part of the final grade or come on yachts n yaching, i think u can guess which wins

  

 

Here ya go Mate...



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http://www.formula18alive.com - www.formula18alive.com


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 8:26am
Hmmmm, Mistral sailor in the background sheeting in and loving it, some guys on a Tornado with the forward hand standing there brave and tall and the skipper skulking down to leeward, too scared to get on the wire. If you look closely, you can see his white knuckles and terrified brow from here, and yet he sails that old people's home known as a Tornado rather than a fast lively cat like a Taipan 4.9.......what's wid dat guy???? As my forward hand/skipper says, a Tornado worlds is the sort of regatta you do the season after you start sailing, before you get onto macho boats like Lasers and windsurfers....

I bet he didn't even sail this Sunday......WE would have sailed this Sunday, of course, if only we hadn't agreed to let some Vicwegians use the boat. We woz raring to go.


Posted By: ed490
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 11:43am

How about this?!



Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 11:48am
That water loks like bileous vomit

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 5:19pm
hey cheers guys that managed to get me thru the day,

both pics look great, the water on the second one looks like yeadon tarn. tho it cand't be cos the tarn is so shallow :'( not deep enough 4 me to put down the daggerboard on the laser 2

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 5:41pm
Is it a 'spot the helm' competition?

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 8:01pm



u reckon this could be real??

i'm not to sure,

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Hugh
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 8:27pm
I dont think that single hull would have the bouyancy to support it so no


Posted By: ianwat2212
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 8:58pm
Mind u if its travelling at speed the foil may be creating a certain amount of lift, and its probably just a split second position

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Simonis 35 "Scarlet Sun" SA 1500
Royal Cape Yacht Club


Posted By: canadalaser
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 10:14pm
no, its possible, the foils are curved, thus providing lift as the boat heels. This scene is common in the open 60 tris in inland races. The raw force kon the sails is large enough to heel the boat like that. Pretty cool, huh?


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 11:21pm

well kl, whos moth is that btw? is it a british international moth?

 



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Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 8:16am
Originally posted by Hugh

I dont think that single hull would
have the bouyancy to support it so no


it wouldn't be much of a triamaran if it sank every
time it flew a hull or two!
The single hull is carrying no more load than if the
main hull were a few inches out of the water rather
than 20 odd feet

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: Hugh
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 9:42am
Point taken.  Hadnt thought about lift from the foils. 


Posted By: JimR
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 11:22am

That trimaran photo was genuine, and yes they did recover it apparently!!

Scary stuff, I'll stick to dinghy sailing I think.



Posted By: ed490
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 11:27am

The moth's from Germany or Holland I think, it's on the German Int moth website.



Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by JimR

That trimaran photo was genuine, and yes they did recover it apparently!!

Scary stuff, I'll stick to dinghy sailing I think.

 

Yep, it is genuine and they did recover.  Maybe with dirty sailing kit mind....



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Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 3:02pm
any good pics of B&Q castorama?

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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 8:15am

Originally posted by Chris 249

Hmmmm, Mistral sailor in the background sheeting in and loving it, some guys on a Tornado with the forward hand standing there brave and tall and the skipper skulking down to leeward, too scared to get on the wire. If you look closely, you can see his white knuckles and terrified brow from here, and yet he sails that old people's home known as a Tornado rather than a fast lively cat like a Taipan 4.9.......what's wid dat guy????

Hey Chirs.  First of all I am not stupid enogh to get up there with the crew.  I know what I am about to do.  Put it in the piss big time.(actually better VMG with one on wire).  I also sail the T because I don't like sailing slow Taipans.  Don't think a 4.9 would survive in this too well.

Originally posted by Chris 249

I bet he didn't even sail this Sunday......WE would have sailed this Sunday, of course, if only we hadn't agreed to let some Vicwegians use the boat. We woz raring to go.

Hard to sail without a boat.  I was down at the club and saw you running away with your boats in tow.  I was ready to crew for you in that 35 knot southerly

Not long after they called the racing off at 1.00 pm, the wind dropped to a perfect 20 to 22 knots

Moments before a gust from over the breakwater bit us in the a$$



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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 8:23am


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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 8:28am

Looks like the T foil rudder did not do the job



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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 8:33am


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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 8:40am


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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 8:55am


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 10:05am
Stephen, Isn't this this thread called photo of the week rather than photo of some time in the last fifty years:-)


Posted By: Iain C
Date Posted: 19 Jan 05 at 10:45pm

Going back to the original 12' picture, I was lucky enough to be sailing the only 12 in the UK last weekend, and the afternoon got quite windy.  Let's just say bye bye 49ers downwind, and the new Gill black/yellow gloves are nearly knackered now...

Some pix to follow on http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub - www.sailingsource.com/cherub (cos' it's a Cherub with a C-Tech rig and Fyfe sails...yes it measures as a 12.  Pix however are on a MUCh calmer day!!

Oh yeah, we also trashed the Frederiksen self tacker...oops...

Cheers

Iain

 



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Fireball GBR14474 "Eleven Parsecs"
Enterprise GBR21970
Bavaria 32 GBR4755L "Adastra"


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 20 Jan 05 at 5:21pm

i notice a common theme of catamarans and trimarans this goes to prove they are the most extreme boat!!!

hopefully this will annoy enough people and get some good arguments""""



Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 21 Jan 05 at 6:10am
Originally posted by hurricane

i notice a common theme of catamarans and trimarans this goes to prove they are the most extreme boat!!!

hopefully this will annoy enough people and get some good arguments""""

Just to be fair, here is a pic of the Bull 9000 we raced at the Savills Regatta in Sydney.  Shot taken on the return trip to Pittwater in up to 38 knots with full main and number 3 and only 2 guys on the boat.  My mate took this shot from his phone whist holding onto the back stay



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Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 21 Jan 05 at 9:48pm

T_A in the one that u posted at 8:33, who(or what) is that in the water? it looks like some suicidal fisherman standing on water???



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Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 12:54am

Kite surfer mate.



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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 4:28pm

a new method of hiking, maybe it's the way forward??



Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 4:45pm
or maybe not

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: maxim
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by tgruitt

a new method of hiking, maybe
it's the way forward??




Funny you should say that, but leafing through an old
sailing book (1950's ish), I saw pictures of various
'cutting edge' designs of the time, including one
class with a 'no hiking' rule. Apparently, through
some loop hole in the rules, hanging off the side
from one leg and arm seemed to be legal, and this
is precisely how the crew spent (many long and
happy) beats to the windward mark. They looked very
much like the chap above, (just not capsized).

All very well supporting the old boats, but I think I
prefer a trapeze thanks.

Max


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 5:53pm
just womdering, what is that boat in the picture ( the dr.crash one)
cheers

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 6:03pm
I think the boat in the pic is a Europe, I remember seeing pictures of Stars at the olympics with crews hiking like that.  Looks a bit funny now but i guess it come down to doing the best you can with the limitations there are. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 6:07pm
ah yeah it might be a europe, i shud have reconised the underside of it, ive seen it enough the one at my club keeps falling over in the compound

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 8:14pm
The URL is http://www.europedinghy.org/pics/DrCrash-Sam.jpg - http://www.europedinghy.org/pics/DrCrash-Sam.jpg  which is probably a clue...


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 22 Jan 05 at 8:19pm

lol cheers, i'm too blonde 4 this game



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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 23 Jan 05 at 3:52pm
T_A not that one! the one with the trimaran wit the tick on the jib

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Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 23 Jan 05 at 4:11pm

libera garda

a Libera capsizing!(at least thats wat came up when i searched libera on google) thats... um a keelboat that has about 15 trapezes on it, and it stil capsized! dunno when the photo was taken...

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.navimeteo.it/navimagazine/04_inverno2004/trofeogorla.html&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.navimeteo.it/navimagazine/04_inverno2004/trofeogorla.html%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3DRNWE,RNWE:2004-41,RNWE:en - description, in english the translation is kinda finicky coz its from italian, but u can get the gist of it...



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Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 23 Jan 05 at 7:33pm
It's a chappie wake-boarding behind the trimaran.


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 24 Jan 05 at 5:47pm

do you think they are trying to work out an excuse to tell the owner??



Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 24 Jan 05 at 5:50pm
Lol that looks um fun???!!!

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: terraslazer
Date Posted: 24 Jan 05 at 5:56pm
how do they eventually get that upright?

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Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 10:12am
Tie a rope onto the transom, and use a rib to flip it over the bows. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 11:05am
assuming the mainsail is still up, would they not be
more likely to put a rope on the front beam and flip it
over the transom?
There is also less buoyancy behind the rear beam
than in front of the front beam

-------------
regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 25 Jan 05 at 6:23pm
if that doesnt work often its a cut the mast off job!!!


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 9:09pm

that would be well expensive. does anyone know did they get it upright agian or was the dreaded cut the mast off job. 



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International 14 1503


Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 03 Feb 05 at 8:43pm
An interesting twin mast double ended reversible proa !



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 03 Feb 05 at 9:45pm
Interesting, but it does seem to have a leeway problem!


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 8:18am
Originally posted by redback

Interesting, but it does seem to
have a leeway problem!


I think you will find that is called 'turning a corner'
rather than '45 degrees of leeway'


-------------
regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 3:32pm


not exactly picture of the week but a preview of the theme on my phone,
Sony Ericsson T 630, which i "made" on my computer. when i say made i
mean i had to resize the pictures and stuff, but that what the menus on
my phone will look like once if put the Theme file onto my phone.
comments please!

p.s - dont ask me who joe is.


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 5:21pm
who is Joe?

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 6:30pm
what is that wierd two mast thing called of is that just a one off?

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International 14 1503


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by carshalton fc

what is that wierd two mast thing called of is that just a one off?

I'm sure the boat itself is a one off, but the general principle is not new (South Sea Islanders actually!). Called a Proa you can regard it as a trimaran without the excess drag and weight of the windward hull. Instead of tacking or gying they do what they call "shunting", which is literally stopping the boat and sailing it off in reverse! Downwside is that the hull has to be symettrical fore and aft which isn't that clever. Some are designed and sailed with the rig on the leeward float, some with the rig on the windward.


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 8:18pm
Brian, tickets for what? and who's joe?

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 04 Feb 05 at 10:17pm

its a sample note from the application.  i dont know who joe is, ring up sony ericsson and ask who joe is.



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Posted By: Twin Poles
Date Posted: 06 Feb 05 at 6:53pm
What kind of milk skimmed, semi-skimmed?

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Posted By: neil 4450
Date Posted: 07 Feb 05 at 7:37pm


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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 07 Feb 05 at 7:58pm

that looks fun. NOT

 



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International 14 1503


Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 8:27am

  Looks like the Bow Man needs a snorkel



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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 10:02am
Anything 12ft skiffs can do UK Cherubs can do to...

http://www.sailingsource.com/cherub


-08_095903_2002pitchpole.jpg">


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 10:05am
-08_100443_2002pitchpole.jpg">

Ok I'll try posting that picture again?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow


Ok I'll try posting that picture again?




Presumably you mean this one... The theory is complex, but I'm starting to think that in some ways the 12s may be slightly *less* pitchpole prone than the Cherubs because the extreme length of the bowsprit stabilises the boat in pitch. Don't think its because the spinnaker lifts the bows because it doesn't. It lifts the *boat* but presses down the bows.


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 12:37pm


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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 1:02pm

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

 

Enough said - that is the photo of the year, decade, century etc



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 2:10pm
AGreed: photo of the week.


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 3:54pm
who's that??

na jokin,
well done ellen!!!!

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Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 4:52pm
Deserves all the respect she gets

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Posted By: Twin Poles
Date Posted: 08 Feb 05 at 6:04pm

It will certainly make a good story to tell her Grandchildren

"Well it all started when i decided to sail around the world on my own without stopping....."

Congratulations Ellen



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Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 8:15am
glad to see she is building a new home on the Isle
of Skye.
Good to see she doesn't overrate the South Coast!
There is plenty of good sailing up here too!

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: Tornado_ALIVE
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 9:46am



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 10:12am
And was that taken this week - or 5 years ago!!


Posted By: Doctor Clifford
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 10:58am
30 odd years

but still from a classic Cat sailing video - cheesy
music the lot

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regards
Dr. Clifford

take two tablets twice daily


Posted By: neil 4450
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 5:59pm


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Posted By: neil 4450
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 6:01pm
ooh mailto:s#@t - s#@t   

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Posted By: neil 4450
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 6:03pm


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Posted By: neil 4450
Date Posted: 09 Feb 05 at 6:06pm

did these boats survive

and the crew



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