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VAGO

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
Forum Discription: Tell us your sailing stories
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=363
Printed Date: 10 May 21 at 6:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: VAGO
Posted By: hurricane
Subject: VAGO
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 6:40pm

em what do people think how good does this boat look?? or is it just me it looks just like the boat brian is after!!!!!

http://www.lasersailing.com/disp/uk/vago/introduction - http://www.lasersailing.com/disp/uk/vago/introduction




Replies:
Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 7:12pm

what is the optimum racing weight?

It looks ok if it takes off racing wise.

Bet it'll be overpriced though.



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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:04pm
well its a laser what do you think the price is going to be like?


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:15pm
so how much is it then? I did think it was a qualifier (sorry about spellings!)
for the 'sexiest' but i'm not too keen now.

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:32pm
i thought it was ment to be a 2man boat

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:49pm
yeah me too, stupid name tho...

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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 8:50pm
it is but can be sailed one up


Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 9:02pm
any guesstimate price?

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Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 10:38pm

VAGUE-O ????

What a terrible name for a boat.  What happened to cool names like Typhoon, Tempest and Fireball? I know these are taken , but they should be able to come up with something slightly more inspiring.

I think this boat should be boycotted until it's given a better name!



Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 10:44pm
is it the same boat as on page 71 of December 17th 2004 Yachts and Yachting?

if so its shown as a double hander,  looks good

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: James Bell
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 10:49pm
Terrible name but a very nice looking hull. I'm guessing the price would be 4,995.

With regards to names I seem to recall some story about the Spark selling poorly until they renamed it the Dart 15. Apparently, 'Spark' sounded too whimpy and pathetic whereas 'Dart' sounded dynamic and exciting. I don't know if there's any truth to that story, but if there is, it's a bit of a surprise that the Dart 15 class are considering the Spark name again after being forced by Laser to change the boats name.... <hops over to the Dart 15 website> ... oh they appeared to have  now settled on the new name of Sprint 15.

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IOS Sailing Community - http://www.iossc.org.uk/" rel="nofollow - www.iossc.org.uk


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 10:53pm
4 more pics of the "vago" http://www.lasersailing.com/gallery/uk/vago - http://www.lasersailing.com/gallery/uk/vago

looks nice, i can't find a price for it tho

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 03 Jan 05 at 11:00pm
just an after thought, if u follow the link above then down the side goto vital stastics it says the boats lengh is 2.3meters (boat length) ive worked that out to be 7.5 feet surly that can't be right for a 2 person aysametric trapeze boat

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 8:09pm
Errrr, I think you'll find that it say's the "Boom length" is 2.3m  The boat is 4.2m.


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 9:01pm
LOL!!! oh well, i really need to read more carefully

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Barty
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 9:20pm

Don't you think that Laser and Topper really need to get over this we design one, you design one...........Magno.....Vago etc It doesn't do the sport any good.  Look at the EPS, a knee jerk reaction to Blaze.  One was carefully thought out the other was just thrown together coz they thought they may lose some market share................one lives, one is long buried.  Topper bring out the Magno and Omega and oh suprise suprise Laser pop out the Vago..........YAWN.

Its going to get as bad as Peugeot, Ford etc with 50,000 models each of the same size boat with head rests and a CD player in one but rear head rests and a DVD player in the other?  More diluted C*%P.



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http://www.highlandtopper.com - For Topper boats & spares in Scotland-highlandtopper.com


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 04 Jan 05 at 10:31pm

They're not in it for the good of the sport though - they're in it to make money.

And I still say the eps is a better boat than the Blaze (which sure as hell wasn't "carefully thought out")!



Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 05 Jan 05 at 12:41am
Looks like its one to try and sell to all the sailing schools and holiday companies - bet it weighs a ton too...


Posted By: Barty
Date Posted: 05 Jan 05 at 8:01am

Being in it for the money is bad for the sport.  Look at where the development has mainly come from.  Its not the companies like Laser and Topper that design the 'quick fix for the sailing schools'.  Its from the people that are passionate about the sport and want to move it forward. 

The blaze was designed properly, i.e. it took time and was refined.  Maybe 'carefully thought out' was a bad choice of words.  The EPS was a knee jerk reaction. Sailors vote with their feet, boats that are good, sell and are sailed.  Do we need another 2 man boat with asymetric and wire???  Do we need another boat with two rigs.

The Blaze comes in at No. 35 in the nationals table and has had around 15-20 boats every year from 1998.  The EPS is at 185 and only has figures for 1999 and 2000 with falling numbers.  The blaze must be doing something right!!!!



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http://www.highlandtopper.com - For Topper boats & spares in Scotland-highlandtopper.com


Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 05 Jan 05 at 1:29pm
At least you should be able to melt the polyethylene hull down and turn it into something usefull when you have finished with it. better than the ecological disasters that glass fiber boats are.


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 05 Jan 05 at 6:37pm

The Blaze is certainly a better boat than it was - now that it's on its third different sail design!  The only reason it is succesfull now is because the class association was enthusiastic enough to organise their own re-design!  The eps wasn't a sales success because Laser screwed the marketing of it and then stopped making them when the Vortex came out (and that seems to have vanished from their product listing too now).  I still have one (my second boat - it doesn't get sailed much these days) and I certainly wouldn't swap it for a Blaze - even though we actually have a Blaze fleet at my club.

I'm sure there isn't a huge amount of repeat business in the dinghy market - OK, maybe the really serious racers replace boats with new(er) versions of the same but most people that I know don't.  So the only way to get a lot of people to buy a new boat is to have something shiny and new for them.  So whenever sales start to drop off the big manufacturers ditch a model and replace it with something easier for them to sell. Good for sailing?   Nope.  Good for selling? Yup.



Posted By: Matt Lingley
Date Posted: 06 Jan 05 at 12:55pm

Errrm, who made the plastic 29er? Somone tell me who is actually going to to sail that thing?

Sailboats have enough compromise in them already, what the hell are these convertable boats all about! Firstly its a medicore 29eralike, change the sails and remove the trap and its a wannabe Rs200, put the trap back on and its trying to be a Musto skiff. Will it be as good as any of these boats? Nope not a chance. Why Oh why!!

Also its plastic so if it falls of the trolly/hits the bottom/rips out a fitting/starts to leak after the warrenty; it has to go back to laser, who then charge you the earth to do the repair. It's interesting that they dont quote a sailing weight in the stats, I'm guessing the hull weighs over 100kg. Yeah, high performance baby.

Maybe it will be a big hit and there will be thousands sold with hundreds at their first Nat's and I'll be proved wrong. I'm not scared though.

 

Rant Over



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If it dosn't blow it sucks!


Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Jan 05 at 1:19pm

Originally posted by *GM*

I'm sure there isn't a huge amount of repeat business in the dinghy market - OK, maybe the really serious racers replace boats with new(er) versions of the same but most people that I know don't.  So the only way to get a lot of people to buy a new boat is to have something shiny and new for them.  So whenever sales start to drop off the big manufacturers ditch a model and replace it with something easier for them to sell..

That's one aspect. Another is that it can be uneconomic to make hulls in batches of one. So it's OK when there is constant demand but once the demand is for only a few boats a year, the manufacturer won't make them at all. I was involved in running a class association that faced exactly this problem. We couldn't get the builder to make any more boats unless several would-be buyers came along at once.

 



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 06 Jan 05 at 5:11pm

The low maintenance and ability to take knocks might get more people into sailing, then they'll realise the a stiff, light hull is better and hopefully get a real performance boat.

Personally I don't like the look of it, the construction method gives it heavy looking gunwhales and there's likely to be a real problem getting enough rig tension.  I wonder if it will replace the Laser3000?



Posted By: MikeBz
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 3:31pm
Way to go Matt, tell it like it is


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 4:19pm
well there not making the 3000 anymore


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 5:47pm

are laser still making the 5000?

i have one of there catalouges from last year and on the front it says:
The Range
laser
laser radial
laser 4.7
laser pico
laser 2000
laser stratos
laser stratos keel
laser 4000
laser SB3
funboat

i presume this is all they have in production at the moment

 



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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 6:03pm

Yes I've just noticed the 3000 isn't made anymore and I'm pretty sure the 5000 isn't.  It's only time of course and the 4000 production will stop but I suspect there's quite a while yet since I reckon they sold about 30 last year.



Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 8:17pm

Originally posted by sailor.jon


The Range
laser
laser radial
laser 4.7
laser pico
laser 2000
laser stratos
laser stratos keel
laser 4000
laser SB3
funboat

the thing is the 4.7 ans radial are the same boat as the laser

the stratos and stratos keel are the same boat so laser are not really making many boats at the mo!!!

em i think that you forgot to mention the dart 16 and 18 as they are still making them!!

last i heard they have sold the molds for the 5000 to the class so i deff think their not making the 5000 any more pitty really to see so many good boats go out of production!



Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 07 Jan 05 at 8:41pm

i know theres no difference in the hulls between full rig, radial and 4.7 after all i do sail my laser with a combo of all 3 rigs, i was just saying what was on the front of the booklet, theres no mention of a dart, tho it may only be a "laser" booklet

  



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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 08 Jan 05 at 9:02am

Also missing from the list is the Vortex.

But what is on their website is a surprise - the Laser 2. One of our members broke his Laser 2 mast last year and lost his rudder. He was unable to get replacements from Laser.

So how many other manufacturer led classes have also stopped manufacture - the Boss, Spice????

We will see what happens to the Dart 15 with its change of builder.



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: mpl720
Date Posted: 08 Jan 05 at 11:53am

" They're not in it for the good of the sport though - they're in it to make money.And I still say the eps is a better boat than the Blaze (which sure as hell wasn't "carefully thought out")!

Well of course manufacturers are in it for the money - it's the driver for a lot of good as well as bad so cannot understand the point here .... 

As for the Blaze, biased as I am, I have to say that many other boats are refined from the original.  Where would the Enterprise or Fireball and a host of other traditional 'one-designs' without refinement over time ?  It's not some sort of sin surely ! The Blaze always had real underlying potential and I think the association in conjuntion with White's and Sobstad were able to realise it fairly quickly - result: happiness all round.  It's common knowledge that other manufacturers 'one-designs' have also been refined as well over time - Laser (sails and eventually controls) RS 400 - (later mainsails are significantly better cut) RS 200 (spinni system and mainsail) and we can go on - but all this is for the good of the owners and the suppliers should be cheered.  We expect it from providors of virtually every other item so what's really bugging people here ?   

The EPS was nearly right - but the wing system was simply too low and from an engineering point of view would  be difficult to improve (Yes - I have sailed them as well - over a few waves and THROUGH far too many !!), the rig was really quite nice but was difficult to 'tune' to different weights being unstayed. The dagger - not as practical as centreboard.  So it was a good boat but had a couple of problems that were difficult to live with for many people - does not mean the class enthusiasts should give up though  .... - if Laser really have given up and can be persuaded - take 'control', acquire the moulds, find someone to manufacture, and sort out the wings, make sure its a cheap upgrade path for existing owners ....  

If associations are independent, strong minded and practical and the boat has underlying virtues the class will prosper unless the manufacturer is determined to kill it off or is plain dumb.  Topper come in for a lot of stick - much of it justified on occasion - but were also prepared to work with the Blaze class association to refine it, other manufacturers could be accused of walking away too often and far too early form fledgling classes.  It's also worth mentioning that the Blaze rights are owned by John Caig of Fireball fame and Ian Howlett - and that to all intents and purposes Topper/Whites are licensed to produce/market the boat.  This means that John and Ian effectively have ultimate control - a useful balance as in theory others could manufacture if they both decided that it was desirable.  As an association I think we have the best of both worlds - of being a manufacturers class but without that manufacturer enjoying totally unlimited control.  I'll also argue that its good for the manufacturer - the 'customer' can exert pressure and with the Blaze that has meant more new boats each year (and unfortunately a shortage of used ones)  

So if you want your manufacturers 'discard' class to survive and prosper (and we expect to see more nearing the brink in the coming years) - and you think it has the real potential long term - don't moan, do something about it, get angry and get going.  

Anyone want to try a Blaze then ?  Get in contact with the association.

Cheers - Mike Lyons '720'  

 

 

 

   

 



Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 08 Jan 05 at 2:49pm
going back to the "VAGO"  the boat has 2 rigs, the vago and the vago XD, the standard boat costs 3995.00 the XD (the only difference appears to be "engine size") costs 4495.00

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: lozza
Date Posted: 10 Jan 05 at 9:08am

Was at the boat show on saturday and had a look at the VAGO.  It has to be one of the worst designs that laser have come out with (this is BAD considering it was sitting next to the funboat).  The controls seem feeble for the predicted performance of the boat and it weighs an absolute ton!!!  Added to this, the sail shape doesn't seem too efficient, i was left in confusion as to what area the boat was marketed.

I asked a laser sailsperson and they claimed that it was aimed at the junior assymetric fleet and beginner adults.  Must be the replacement for the 3000 but not as good, just looks fancier to attract newbie sailors.

Better to get a decent second hand 29er IMHO.



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Life's a reach, then you gybe


Posted By: Lazorsharp
Date Posted: 11 Jan 05 at 5:54pm

looks like a bigger 3000, but could be 1 or 2 man boat... less tippy anyhow!! it has a nice hull shape good to trapeze off! the name is a bit weird. it needs to be a bit more snappy



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 12:03am

I had a look at one in the flesh today.  Nice quality moulding, not my sort of boat but could be quite a lot of father/young son teams might like it.  It could be that it gets them into the sport and then they buy a proper boat.  It might make a good trainer for youth before going into the 29er.

Topper have a new boat out too.  It's sort of RS400 size and not polyethylene like the Magno, more of a serious racing machine, non trapeze and very wide.  It looks heavy and the rig looks the same as the Magno but I'm told it's not.



Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 12 Jan 05 at 5:23pm
Please redback...not Magno.....Mango

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: pico master
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 7:54pm
the vago looks awesome, how can you lot not like it? its a small full pelt designed by the best dinghy designer in the country and is set to be the next big thing. its the next step up for someone moving up from an RS200 to a more high performance boat, im getting one and so should you!


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:07pm
yes but your name is pico master...   suggesting you like that bullet proof crap

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Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:19pm

Originally posted by pico master

the vago looks awesome, how can you lot not like it? its a small full pelt designed by the best dinghy designer in the country and is set to be the next big thing. its the next step up for someone moving up from an RS200 to a more high performance boat, im getting one and so should you!

Blimey I bet all those RS200 owners are chuffed to bits by that piece if news



Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:25pm
Um Harry im not sure if we can talk we sail kinda bullet proof crap!

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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:41pm
Yeah but you both know it!

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Posted By: bigwavedave
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:45pm
On a serious note I fail to see how the Vago could be classed as a step up from a RS200.  A step up from a Pico certainly.  But a pico to a 200 would be a leap.

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Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 8:50pm
i personaly liked the look of the boat, i hope its nothing like the topaz trez, horrible horrible boats, just too small and tipy, when u try n trapeze  on em ( thats the only way theres room in the boat) when u push off from the gunnal the boat slides sideways from underneth you,

appoliges to all trez owners. but working at a sailing school with a fleet of  7or 8 ive learnt to avoide them  

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 14 Jan 05 at 9:31pm

Originally posted by Wave Rider

Um Harry im not sure if we can talk we sail kinda bullet proof crap!

Wrong, the pico is like a diff. material and it's really thick, claims to be bullet proof (or is that the topaz) anyway there really heavy. oh i sail others boat too, not bound to the brightly colored decks of a topper!



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Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 16 Jan 05 at 12:45pm

Lol so do i fireballs seem very fast compared to toppers! We can only use my mates Fireball in things under a force 4 cos otherwise we'll probably brerak something so then we go in toppers...........I like fireballs!

 

By the way ur right Pico's r crap becuase theyre to heavy and they rip ur wetsuit!



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: sailor girl
Date Posted: 16 Jan 05 at 2:42pm
hey, my mum finally got a new boat...a topaz! lol its blue-the best colour!!!!!

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Sailor Girl, Queen Of The Forum!


Posted By: john.d.knight
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:14pm
I agree with Sailor.jon, our club bought a Topaz Trez with the intention of the junior sailors learning to use an asymmetric and trapeze. Once the wind gets up to trapezeing strength they struggle to get round the course without capsizing. Saying that, me and my son took it to the Top Club competition af Grafham and had a great time in it, although we did capsize it a few times.. 

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Pain is just weakness leaving the body.


Posted By: Lazorsharp
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 1:28pm
Picos are great boats for beginners. I loved my Pico when I started sailing, but now crave more speed and excitement: Laser 4.7!!


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 17 Jan 05 at 4:59pm

Topazes are okish, but i hate picos!

ohh the thrill! Btw you should sail a topper rather than a 4.7, pretty much the same but cheaper and the hull isnt too big for the rig, bigger sail on a topper and they actually have a good fleet. but i sposer you cant switch rigs as you grow.



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Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 18 Jan 05 at 11:58pm
for that kina price range, u CAN get a 29er!!!!

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: Razerlarf
Date Posted: 23 Jan 05 at 7:32pm
Hmmm, relative to a Laser 2 (for which masts, rudders etc. are still available thanks partly to pressure from UK class association - IF YOU SAIL A BOAT JOIN THE CLASS ASSOCIATION):
- only 0.4m^2 more upwind area despite a more modern (?) well, more recent, rig design
- shorter
- beamier (but just sticky-out sides, so waterline beam could be similar?)
- 'suprising fast' to quote the designer (so's a Laser '2' at times....)
- pivoting centreboard (more fun on a stoney beach)
- weight?  ahh..... nothing quoted
Not going to set the world on fire is it, but I suppose the schools / holiday camps (sorry centres) will buy it (if the price is right)?
Back to sleep!



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MikeC


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 23 Jan 05 at 7:34pm
i heard someone say that it will be quicker than a 4000, fat chance? am i right?


Posted By: *GM*
Date Posted: 23 Jan 05 at 9:17pm
The Laser bloke at the Boat Show reckoned it was aimed at the gap between the Pico and the 2K with the small rig on or between the 2K and the 4K with the big rig.  So the only way it's going to be faster than the 4K is if it's tied onto the back of a RIB at the time...


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 26 Jan 05 at 8:34pm

the vago is never as fast as a 4000if it was i would buy one as it is only like 4000.  but for that sort of money you could buy a very good 4000 with several sets of sails!  and it is plastic and dont even get me started about a plastic boat it might be good for teaching mediam large adults how to trapeze and us the kite!!!



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International 14 1503


Posted By: Chris Noble
Date Posted: 16 Feb 05 at 11:09pm
exactly

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http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=561 - Competitive Boat Insurance From Noble Marine

FOR SALE:

I14 2 Masts 2 poles 3 Booms, Foils Kites/Mains/Jibs too many to list.


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 12:18pm
 plastic boats suck havnt sailed a good 1 yet

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Posted By: moomin
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 12:42pm

Originally posted by stuarthop

 plastic boats suck havnt sailed a good 1 yet

Plastic boats have their place, they might not be the fastest boats in the world but are ideal for sailing schools, beginners, beach boats.  There's been a lot of pico bashing going on as well, having worked in a big sailing school, picos are much easier to handle for a beginner and much less hassle on the maintenance side.



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Moomin


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 6:23pm
I have to agree with moomin on Pico's, for teaching they are the best boat of that size, far better all in all than toppers, or anything else that anyone has tried to invent. 

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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 18 Feb 05 at 9:33pm
they're good to learn in but are very quickly outgrown as the sailor progresses

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Posted By: Razerlarf
Date Posted: 19 Feb 05 at 11:18am
I've got to say that I've found that Picos are brilliant for basic teaching (once you have lugged them into the water - heavy and no handholds) and tactical stuff (you can spin them on a sixpence - er.... 5p piece...).  However I've heard that Fevas are better - but there again they are a more recent design, so should be better! 

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MikeC


Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 19 Feb 05 at 11:35am

hi Razerlarf!

I would recognise that style anywhere!

And don't correct the sixpence to 5 p, none of the younger readers would get it anyway  

Whatever you're doing this weekend, enjoy the weather



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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 19 Feb 05 at 12:55pm

fevas are very good for teaching cos you can put a complete beginer in one and the wont find it hard.  but at the same time you can put an experienced sailor in one and they will still have fun with the three sails!!! 

 



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International 14 1503


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 19 Feb 05 at 9:20pm
havn't tried one a few freinds seem to think that their good though

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Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 11:32am

em i have used one to teach in and my view is that it is one of the most unstable boats to teach in a pico is 100x better than a feva!



Posted By: pico master
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 11:54am
i agree with hurricane Fevas are good boats but they are far to unstable, it's virtualy impossible to rig one while on the water.Give me a Pico anyday!


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 12:01pm
Picos are the crappest boats ever, i absolutely hate them, they are heavy, ugly slow, have no fleet, arnt even that good for learning in etc. i haven't siled a feva but they can't be any worse than a Pico.


Posted By: sailor.jon
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 12:11pm
i have sailed picos but never fevas. really the pico aint that bad when u think about it, a much worst boat would be the topaz trez

hate the trez

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Jon
Vortex 1169
http://www.yorkshiredales.sc/ - Yorkshire Dales Sailing Club


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 2:17pm

Originally posted by Harry44981!

Picos are the crappest boats ever, i absolutely hate them, they are heavy, ugly slow, have no fleet, arnt even that good for learning in etc. i haven't siled a feva but they can't be any worse than a Pico.

well i think a pico is alot better than a topper anyday!!!

did u know that a certain ben has admited to loving match racing picos!!!



Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 2:39pm

 

well i think a pico is alot better than a topper anyday!!!

I wouldn't agree, non biased opinions:

  • They are both equally good for training, if a pic is a little more spacious
  • Both have jib kits
  • Toppers look better, without the pink and yellow colour combo
  • Toppers weigh less
  • Toppers have fully adjustable controlls
  • Toppers have a very good race circuit, picos have none
  • Therefore there are more possibilities with toppers eg: racing
  • toppers are cheaper?
  • toppers have option of aft or centre main
  • toppers are isaf approved class, and RYA junior and pathway class
  • There is alot of high standard race training available to toppers- none to pico apart from private sailing schools- non pico specific
  • Me and waverider sail toppers
  • How many top sailors has the pico class bred vs Toppers?
  • erm thats all i can think of at the moment..
  • Oh and I got stuck under a Pico when i was younger and it was really scary!


Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by Harry44981!

 

well i think a pico is alot better than a topper anyday!!!

I wouldn't agree, non biased opinions:

  • They are both equally good for training, if a pic is a little more spacious - vital for teaching
  • Both have jib kits - topper's is a bodge and metal bits stick out unsafely
  • Toppers look better, without the pink and yellow colour combo - who cares when you are learning
  • Toppers weigh less - centreboard further from the water when capsized
  • Toppers have fully adjustable controlls - overcomplicates things when teaching, more to go wrong/fix
  • Toppers have a very good race circuit, picos have none - thought this was about a teaching boat
  • Therefore there are more possibilities with toppers eg: racing - ditto
  • toppers are cheaper? - topper RRP 2295 pico RRP 2255
  • toppers have option of aft or centre main - so do picos the change takes about 2 min
  • toppers are isaf approved class, and RYA junior and pathway class - not really inportant when you start, also intimedates older starters
  • There is alot of high standard race training available to toppers- none to pico apart from private sailing schools- non pico specific - ditto
  • Me and waverider sail toppers  - hmmmmm
  • How many top sailors has the pico class bred vs Toppers? - not been around long enough to say
  • erm thats all i can think of at the moment..
  • Oh and I got stuck under a Pico when i was younger and it was really scary! - fair play

sorry if this sounds a little flippant, its not meant to be.   its just that you can argue everything both ways and this is a welcome distraction from trying to design an oceanographic research vessel. 



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 4:21pm

All true for a training boat Phil, but the topper is Rya approaved so has that training in form of zone and national squads etc. and Topper have their own national squad too, and spesific regional training. If you own one you'll want it too look better, both are ugly boats but the topper has better colours. the toppers aft and centre main are within class regualtions and can be raced with unlike pico. The controlls are vital for higher level competition, and if you dont want them you can stick with the original standard (crap) ones. I don't know where that topper quote came from, I got mine fully race rigged, trolley etc. for aout 2000 brand new, don't buy 'em from topper international them rip you off. The centreboard sticking out less far is less of an issue for righting than that the pico hull is really heavy.

I suppose a pico is better for sticking someone whos never sailed before in, but for racing or anything slightly competitve it doesn't even get close to the topper, laser 4.7 or oppie.



Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 4:22pm
I KNEW that would cause an argument thats why i said it


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 4:24pm

Healthy disscussion is far better than French homework!



Posted By: Phil eltringham
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 5:01pm

The RRP prices came straight off the respective manufactueres websites. 

The actual mass of the boat is not that important for righting from a capsize, the important point is where the centre of gravity is in relation to the centre of the underwater volume of the hull on its side (moment of rig which you pull against to right) also the pico hull does drain out faster than a toppers.  (I think pico mast top sections are sealed too unlike a topper's, which helps stop inversions)

I think the point is that neither boat is "better" than the other, it is just that they do different jobs, so direct comparisson is kind of pointless!



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FLAT IS FAST!
Shifts Happen


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 5:41pm
Yup well said Phil, (btw the topper top sections are sealed- the new ones are anyway)


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 7:45pm
topers are easier to sail now with the centre main kit. my bro had to test it for harken as part of his sponsership and he loved it. its also made the transition into a radial easier for him

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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 8:03pm
Originally posted by Harry44981!

Healthy disscussion is far better than French homework!

 

Better not say that Harry there is a French teacher on this forum and she is watching you



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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 20 Feb 05 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by stuarthop

topers are easier to sail now with the centre main kit.


Not sure I agree with that - but it does give people the option and makes transition from an oppie and then on easier.

And I'm not saying that because I don't have experience of sailing centre sheeted boats. For someone like me who's too heavy for a Topper it noticable puts my weight in the wrong place when tacking or gybing - if I was ever to think about racing it centre-main I'd have to tack facing aft (like in Europes)...

I think the jury is still out.

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Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 8:06am
Centre main is far better in heavy airs in chop, with aft we had to do this funny twisting chop technique, but it's alot better with centre main. Plus facing forwards is good.

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Posted By: ssailor
Date Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 3:18pm
The centre main on a topper is a brilliant idea, (i have never used one) but from other kids at the sailing club its obvious it makes the progression through boats easier - especially to other youth classes like the Laser rads, or 29ers.

The feva is a much better boat than the pico, and for anyone who thinks its tippy try sailing a 29er in hardly any wind, bloomin things dont even stand up on their own (then again neither does my I14!)

Goin back to the Vago - all i can say is why the hell have laser tried to cross a 2000, a 29er and a Pico?!! Its just a fat ugly mutant version of the brilliant 29er, combined with its all up sailing weight of 41/2 ton its is never going to be a brilliant boat.

At the end of the day we should be removing aft mains from all boats and leaving them to those weird cat sailing types, as the centremain is what all decent boats use, so what is the point in teaching kids in an aft main boat?!!




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Any one in need of quality carbon fibre work (tillers etc) at decent prices!

Int 14 Gbr 1244 'Nucking Futs'

The New Port rule!!.


Posted By: Wave Rider
Date Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 5:20pm

Yeah,

Just got back from a holiday and missed most of this discussion but i think being able to get brilliant race training and race oportunities in a class is imporant for training because :

If you learn to sail in a Pico you are going to want to race eventually and this is hard in a pico.

You have just learned to sail and now you have to chage class to enter Open meeting's etc.

If you learn in a Topper you can then learn the basics, then upgrade to a race rig and get to a competetive level and you are obviously going to want to enter some class races eventually !!!!

Finshed my rant...............oh yeah and if you are learning to sail your not going to want to buy new wetsuits all the time and Pico's really wreck wetsuits and there is PICO KNEE!  



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           -[Franko]-
Chew Valley Lake Sailing Club
           RS600 933


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 21 Feb 05 at 6:19pm
with so many aft main classes changing to centre main if they havent already the topper is now a much better boat to learn in, a trick my dad taught me for teaching begginers in toppers to encorage propperboat balance, is to do a hand stand on the foredeck against the mast. the begginer will then build up confidence as they think they can balance the boat well, though if it heels too much you can level the boat out a bit by adding more pressure to your windward hand.

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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 22 Feb 05 at 7:42pm
When it's almost too windy ( and the kids don't go ) the dads get to race the picos..... quite fun !!





Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 22 Feb 05 at 9:48pm
yer i know what you mean wave rider i teach people to sail in picos and one lady bought a new wetsuit bafore doing her course and two days into the couse the knees were completely worn out.

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International 14 1503


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 22 Feb 05 at 10:25pm

one of the many problems with the pico is that its to shallow to teach propper boat crossing technique on your feet as it feels un natural to stand up in them



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Posted By: Blobby
Date Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 12:54am
Originally posted by stuarthop

 to shallow to teach propper boat crossing technique on your feet

Proper boat crossing technique is class specific surely.  How many olympic europe, finn and laser sailors get up on their feet to cross the boat?  Severe danger of doing a Mr. Jardine if you do!



Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 1:37am

Originally posted by Blobby

Severe danger of doing a Mr. Jardine if you do!

Is this going to be an official sailing term in the future? Our grandchildren will do a jardine and get wet (and bruised) and philologists will be totally puzzled by the origin of the word. Mark, you're becoming a legend!!    



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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: stuarthop
Date Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 2:05pm
lol

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Posted By: Brian
Date Posted: 23 Feb 05 at 4:34pm

i know someone else that did that, they were leaning over to talk to me when i was sailing next to them and their boom whipped over, hit them in the back of the head and knocked them in. veeeery funny



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