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New women's Olympic boat

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1593
Printed Date: 27 Sep 22 at 9:56pm
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Topic: New women's Olympic boat
Posted By: MikeBz
Subject: New women's Olympic boat
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 9:41am

I read elsewhere that ISAF are going to hold an 'Olympic Observation Trial' soon, investigating the possibility of adding a women's high-performance crewed dinghy class to the 2012 Olympics.  Boats will be evaluated against a number of fundamental criteria, one of which is this:

High Performance Ė The dinghy must be able to sail faster off the wind than on the wind;

Is this a credible definition of High Performance?  (Don't bother to answer that).

Are there any dinghies which are faster on the wind than off the wind?

Perhaps they really mean '...must be able to sail faster than wind'speed'???

Answers on a postcard, sent via donkey, to...

Mike




Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 10:58am
N12's go faster upwind than down on a light wind day

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Needs to sail more...


Posted By: jpbuzz591
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 11:13am
i thought that the new 29erXX rig was hot favourite to becoming a womens olympic class? or am i wrong

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Jp Indoe
Contender 518
Buzz591
Chew Valley Sailing club
Bristol


Posted By: 5420
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 11:14am
i think the boat that will get choosen will be the 29erxx it is the one they are considering and i think is the best boat for the job

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Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 11:18am
I souldn't worry too much about the published criteria. Once the trials get underway, any criteria that the favoured boat doesn't fulfill will be quietly dropped. That's what they did when they selected the 49er. Criteria are just there to convince the world that it's not a political choice. Starboat re-selection, remember that?

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No FD? No Comment!


Posted By: Skiffman
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 11:28am

I think that the 29er XX has to be the favourite to be in the 2012 Olympics as a womans high performance boat. The only problem is that ISAF have had problems with Julian in the past, but I think now thats over because they have just voted in the UD18 as the new paraolympic boat. Most of the boats in the Olympics do not really fit the ISAF's criteria aswell, its just what they like and what they thinks best.

It would be good to get another skiff in especially for the woman, and its one more medal the Brits can take



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49er GBR5

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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 12:54pm
Olympic sailing... a great advert for our sport or  a small group of highly talented sailors from an even smaller number of countries, sailing around courses for long periods of time in, mostly, ancient designs which are a) overpriced and b)  generally so specialised that  only that small group of sailors can get the best from them.

Apart from the Laser and 49er, could you describe any of the other Olympic classes as looking like good, simple, fun?

It's a good thing most of us weren't attracted to dinghy sailing by the Olympics because a narrow group at the top of the ISAF have put our sport in great jepoardy of being thrown out all together - because it's not very exciting TV, doesn't have wide participation and doesn't attract big crowds so beloved of sponsors.

Thank goodness the trend got a rare reversal when they bunged the outdated, flimsy, super tweaky and super expensive Europe for a boat at least 90% of the planets' aspiring Olympic sailors could access and actually sail in the hope that the person who wins will actually be the best sailor (as in the mens Laser) rather than just the best string puller or the person with the biggest training budget.


Posted By: Javelin53
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:17pm
it's got to be 29erxx

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I hoped the threat would be enough!

JAVELIN 53

ENTERPRISE 16691,RESTORATION JOB

TOPPER 29388

BUCKENHAM SC


Posted By: NeilP
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 1:43pm

Who ever said the Olympics was supposed to be about good, simple fun?? It's meant to be the pinnacle of sporting endeavour. Tiddlywinks is good simple fun, let's have that instead of 110 metres hurdles. Nothing wrong with simple boats in the Olympics, but equally, you could say that Olympic classes OUGHT to be difficult to sail.

If you define the "best sailor" as the person who gets their boat round the course in the least time (anyone want to argue with that definition??) then string-pulling is just as much a part of sailing as the physical process of sailing, as is training and rig development.

As for the spectator/sponsor issues, it really doesn't matter what classes are sailed, the sport will never attract big money. As a sailor, some of the most spectacular footage from Athens was the 470's reaching in big breeze, but to non-sailors even 49ers look pretty dull. I personally hope the boat picked for the women's high performance class is genuinely the best available test of all-ruond sailing ability, and not the one that looks best on telly. If it's the 29erxx, great. If it's something else, also great.



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No FD? No Comment!


Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 2:49pm

29erXX looks great to me - but what's the competition?

There must surely be other trialists - and if so what are they? If most of us don't know what the alternatives are then we're obviously going to choose the only one we've heard of - let alone seen or most importantly sailed.



Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 2:55pm

Originally posted by getafix



Thank goodness the trend got a rare reversal when they bunged the outdated, flimsy, super tweaky and super expensive Europe for a boat at least 90% of the planets' aspiring Olympic sailors could access and actually sail in the hope that the person who wins will actually be the best sailor (as in the mens Laser) rather than just the best string puller or the person with the biggest training budget.

I think you'll find that this is the main determiner of who does well in the laser!



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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:06pm
Tack'ho You honestly think the person who does best in the Laser is the one who has the biggest budget! What do you base this on?

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: KnightMare
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:09pm
That may be tru but it doesnt mean that they are doind well because they have a big budget its does work the other way round too.

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http://theramblingsofmyinnergeek.blogspot.com/


Posted By: Hector
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by tack'ho

Originally posted by getafix



Thank goodness the trend got a rare reversal when they bunged the outdated, flimsy, super tweaky and super expensive Europe for a boat at least 90% of the planets' aspiring Olympic sailors could access and actually sail in the hope that the person who wins will actually be the best sailor (as in the mens Laser) rather than just the best string puller or the person with the biggest training budget.

I think you'll find that this is the main determiner of who does well in the laser!

Rubbish. Look at the medal table - some of the top Laser performers are from (comparatively) poor countries. In any case I think the point getafix was making was that the Laser provides a much fairer 'playing field' than the Europe (or any other comparatively technical boat). In the Europe,  budget for training and testing was mega important.



Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:33pm

Back to the orginal topic... From the Daily Sail:

Although ISAF have said that they have not made any decisions on what boat the female skiff could replace the options are reasonably small. We have thought about this and think that the most likely course of action is to replace the womenís 470 with the new female skiff, make the 49er the menís double handed class and then make the remaining 470 class an open class. This would also have the advantage of there being some male and female teams in the Olympics, as the 470 requires a very light helm and bigger crew. Sailors often talk about how good it is that men and women can compete against one another side-by-side surely it would be a good thing to showcase this at the highest level of the sport. These changes would leave the Olympic line-up as:

Laser menís single handed dinghy
Laser Radial womenís single handed dinghy
Finn open single handed dinghy
49er menís double handed dinghy
New high performance boat womenís double handed dinghy
470 open double handed boat
Yngling womenís keelboat
Star menís keelboat
Tornado open catamaran
RS:X menís and womenís windsurfer

 

So what would the impact be on the 470?

 

Female crews go 29erXX sailing?

Male crews stay 470 sailing?

Then it is who is better: boys or girls at helming!!!

 



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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:40pm
The point I should have made more clearly was that the classes which are most outdated  in terms of original design date; Star, Finn, Yngling, 470, Tornada mostly look it, despite expensive upgrades like carbon spars and advanced construction.  They have become more of a hindrance to wider participation in Olympic sailing than a help.

Could we visualise a talented sailor from Africa or the Indian sub-continent having the budget or access to do a Star campaign without moving to US/Europe?  If the answer is, yes you can campaign these boats but you have to live outside of your home nation then that's not helping your home association build up support - the great thing about the Laser is it's cheap, accessible and widley distributed - just like hurdles and running tracks for the comparison.

The fun aspect is that unless the sport looks like fun and the boats are fun to sail (which I know will always be limited by the seriousness of the sport at that level) then it's hard to see how people will be inspired to campaign them for 4 years.  Most comentators for example seem to believe that 4yrs in a Yngling is basically torture - but 4yrs in a 29erxx or similar skiff? at least you could let your hair down occassionally and thrash it round a harbour for an 1hr!

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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 5:53pm

Originally posted by getafix

The point I should have made more clearly was that the classes which are most outdated  in terms of original design date; Star, Finn, Yngling, 470, Tornada mostly look it, despite expensive upgrades like carbon spars and advanced construction.  They have become more of a hindrance to wider participation in Olympic sailing than a help.

 

tornado? looking outdated? to me it looks exciting and fast. it doesnt look outdated. it has an asymetric that cant be too outdated.

also what are the other choices apart from the 29erxx?



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600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: hurricane
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 6:23pm
the tornado is no way outdated if anything its still up there cutting it with the best of them, as far as im awear its still the fastest production catamaran in the world!

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lifes to short to sail slow boats!

RIP Olympic Tornado 1976-2007


Posted By: DaveT
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 7:13pm

I think the best thing coming out of this will be mixed crews in the 470 if thats the way it ends up going. Will do far more for sailing IMO than just a more exciting boat for the ladies.



Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 8:57pm

Something very odd in the olympic choice of boats.  And like getafix says, what a discouragement from joining in.

The Finn as the open boat?  How many women sail Finns?

Finn AND laser? When there are proper performance single handers about?

So why a ladies performance boat at all;  the 49er is an open class and if women are supposed to sail Finns, surely they're managing the 9er.

....... nearly as weird as the RYA pushing toppers....



Posted By: redback
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 9:23pm

Many of the olympic boats are expensive and relatively unexciting and thus not popular.  The Laser has to be better than a Finn from many points of view, the Star is disproportionately expensive for its performance and there has to be a more exciting boat for good sailors than the Yingling.  The Tornado may be the fastest cat but I'm sure a new design could be faster and cheaper.  The Europe was a lovely boat but for olympic competitors hugely expensive with some sailors going through a dozen masts and scores of sails to get that extra bit of performance.  And why do we have different classes for women and men when heavy weight can be such a disadvantage in many classes.

Men and women should compete on equal terms in modern, one design classes.  The cat should be a Hobie Tiger, the skiff should be a 49er, the single hander should be a Laser Radial and the board should be a RSX, forget all the rest but if you must have a keel boat it should be a SB3.  If you must have a conventional dinghy then the 470 is about OK for olympic athletes of either sex.



Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 9:58pm
 Perhaps a quick tour of the worlds sailing clubs would reveal the boats of choice for the average sailor. What is needed are representative and recognisable craft. They should also be modern and asperational. Replace the horrid Finn with Phantom and the 470 with B14 or 59er. Regarding Olympic T.V. coverage, short edited films which show the dramatic bits without the visualy boring stuff could increase the visual appeal. I will happily undetake the world tour and await the summons from the Olympic Commitee.

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tickel


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by NickA

....... nearly as weird as the RYA pushing toppers....

Not weird at all then....



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Posted By: Olly4088
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 10:19pm

Originally posted by tickel

 Perhaps a quick tour of the worlds sailing clubs would reveal the boats of choice for the average sailor. What is needed are representative and recognisable craft. They should also be modern and asperational. Replace the horrid Finn with Phantom and the 470 with B14 or 59er. Regarding Olympic T.V. coverage, short edited films which show the dramatic bits without the visualy boring stuff could increase the visual appeal. I will happily undetake the world tour and await the summons from the Olympic Commitee.

I totally agree



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Phantom 1298


Posted By: les5269
Date Posted: 28 Mar 06 at 10:50pm

The opinion I see emerging here is that most of the boats people want to see are single handers or asymmetric,which is fine by me but,

Should we be dropping conventional spinnakers for asymmetric.Personally I think we should always have a conventional spinnaker in the Olympics.The 470 is the perfect boat for that.

(And I only sail asymmetrics )



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49er 531 & 5000 5025 and a mirror(now gone to mirror heaven)!

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Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 1:47am
One of the best boats I've sailed was a 470, full of power but still light and responsive, the way I judged her was basically a 505 with a bit of weight shaven off. The way forward in my eyes is to make the 470 an open class, freeing up space for the 29erXX to gain selection, or possibly the RS800, B14 or Cherub, for the womens double-handed category. I agree with Les, you can't drop conventional boats from the Olympics and the 470 fills the bill ideally.

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Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ -
Helensburgh S.C
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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 7:53am

Why not replace the Yngling with the 79er (please note I do not work for Ovi, I just like their boats!!!)

 

Another point is RS boats do not really feature that much outside the UK, so would not be a good choice from the international perspective, unless LDC changed their marketing strategy...



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Posted By: CapSizer
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 10:10am
I think there are a couple of very popular misconceptions:
  1. That it is more of an achievement to win in an old, painful boat like the Finn, compared to a more modern and responsive lighter boat.  This is false, to achieve at Olympic level is an almost (but not quite) impossible achievement, and the choice of boat has nothing to do with that.
  2. That it is only in a specialised class like the Finn or Europe that the sailor "from Africa" would have to live and sail in Europe to be competitive.  This is also false.  To compete at Olympic level in the Laser or Laser radial also requires a full time committment to living and sailing on the international circuit.  Compared to this expense, the cost of the boat is almost trivial, so the class selection is really not that important.
I quite like the idea that somebody came up with on Sailing Anarchy, which is to have totally "blind" classes, that nobody can practice on beforehand.  Pitch up at the Olympics and THEN discover what newly designed boat you will be sailing.  Maybe it's not practical, but it would save a fortune in boat tinkering before the Olympics, and would also open up the possibility of having boats that really suit the conditions.  It looks like you would want massively over-canvassed boats for China, for example ...


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 10:15am
The thing that most restricts the choice of classes is their International distribution. The Yngling was, for example, the only remotely suitable keel boat class that had anything like a balanced international distribution. All the others were Americas only, Europe only or Commonwealth nations only.

I'd like to see the 470 stay on as a mixed doubles class, one woman, one man, who crews and who helms unrestricted.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 11:35am

Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by JimC



I'd like to see the 470 stay on as a mixed doubles class, one woman, one man, who crews and who helms unrestricted.


sounds like an excellent idea!

Its allowed in badminton, so why not in sailing! It would certainly reflect a huge number of mixed teams found in many classes at club and national level.



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by redback

The Tornado may be the fastest cat but I'm sure a new design could be faster and cheaper. 

 

Cheaper, maybe.  Faster, not yet.

 

As for a ladies boat.  It reeally should be another Cat.  How about the F16 or Spitfire ?



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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 1:12pm

Originally posted by JimC



I'd like to see the 470 stay on as a mixed doubles class, one woman, one man, who crews and who helms unrestricted.

 

I am sure if you did this 95% of the top boats would be Women helming and Men Crewing. Not saying this is a bad thing but in terms of optimisation (which is what Olympic sailing is all about) this would be the most likely winning combination... 



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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 1:30pm
Like the idea of changing the Tornado to  an open  (2  person) cat which could also be sailed singlehanded  by men and women using the same platform - ie. hulls & tramp - similar to Spitfire/Shadow concept.  You could also drop the Yngling in favour of the 29erXX and the Star and Finn in favour of a more modern keelboat for either fleet racing or match racing... so a line up like:

Laser - mens
Laser Radial - womens
49er - dble mens
29erXX - dble womens
Double handed cat - open
Single handed cat - mens & womens
Keelboat - fleet open
Keelboat - match racing, open

Keep the 470? I know it's popular but it's another boat which has probably suffered more than prospered because of Olypmic status, why not have an extra keelboat element (so Match Racing and fleet racing) - both with conventional kites as a good test of boat handling skills and to off-set all that A-sail stuff!

I don't like the idea of continuing with the Tornado - it's hardly fair to call it a 'production' boat, it's fantastically expensive and can't be trailed (legally) very easily - it is incredibly fast though...


Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 8:45pm
The trouble is that conventional kite boats probably have a limited life. Like it or not eventualy they will probably decline over the comming years unless ,of course, someone designs a new one. So, how about  a 59er or a B14 with a propper spinaker or a totaly new skiff, catch that downhill!!!

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tickel


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:13pm

Originally posted by tickel

The trouble is that conventional kite boats probably have a limited life. Like it or not eventualy they will probably decline over the comming years unless ,of course, someone designs a new one. So, how about  a 59er or a B14 with a propper spinaker or a totaly new skiff, catch that downhill!!!

I think this has been covered before - on nationals turnouts, the symmetrical spinnakered boats are more popular than they have been in many years, and abroard they are streets ahead of the skiff like boats in terms of numbers sailed.



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:17pm
yer but the skiff boats are the best in terms of tv coverage!  who wants to watch a 470 going down wind??  (noone)  who wants to watch a skiff fly downwind??  everyone!!   sail numbers mean nothing if the boats sit in the boat park and arnt sailed.

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International 14 1503


Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:50pm
Well Rupert, that may be true for now but in time everything develops. It's not the type of kite but what it's attached to that counts. Modern boats are image and image is popularity in the modern world. The Olympics are the premier advertising spot for our sport. My own children, both successful sailors, and one a girl, always had trouble making their friends understand that they didn't just float around on old wooden things looking at the view

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tickel


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 9:57pm
So, Maybe we need a third form of Spinnaker - one with the wow factor of the asym and the versatility of the conventional one. Over to all you budding sail designers...

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 11:02pm
Originally posted by carshalton fc

...tv coverage!


Hmm, not much difference between
"who wants to watch a pole kite boat - no-one"
and
"who wants to watch a asymettric boat - almost no-one"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 29 Mar 06 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by Rupert

So, Maybe we need a third form of Spinnaker - one with the wow factor of the asym and the versatility of the conventional one. Over to all you budding sail designers...


You mean like this kind of thing?



Its more a matter of having a sensible length polethan anything else...


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 12:34am

Originally posted by getafix

Like the idea of changing the Tornado to  an open  (2  person) cat which could also be sailed singlehanded  by men and women using the same platform - ie. hulls & tramp - similar to Spitfire/Shadow concept.  Double handed cat - open
Single handed cat - mens & womens
.

.

.


I don't like the idea of continuing with the Tornado - it's hardly fair to call it a 'production' boat, it's fantastically expensive and can't be trailed (legally) very easily - it is incredibly fast though...

 

Erm....  Shadow and Spitfire have totally different hulls.  Same plates and rudders (I think).

Tornado can be trailed easily enough and totally legally on a tilt trailer - not sure where the "can't be trailed (legally) very easily" comes from, you need to slide the wings in on a 49er before you drive away!



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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 5:49am
"To compete at Olympic level in the Laser or Laser radial also requires a full time committment to living and sailing on the international circuit."

Not sure.....the bronze medallist and the mid-fleet triple Olympian used to spend most of their time training here, a loooooong way from the international circuit. I bump into last year's Radial women's world champ and the guy who dominated the Euro circuit when I do regattas down here; they sail the circuit, but not full-time. The guy who got about 7th in the other small singlehander (Mistral) at Athens spent something like 9 weeks overseas in the preceding 4 years. The US rep was off the circuit most of the time.

Re the idea that people watch spectacular boats......it seems logical and Bethwaite says people do it in their thousands when the Eyedeens are out on the harbour in Sydney.

Problem is, it doesn't seem true these days. On our national day, I was one of hundreds picnicking on one of the islands that form the rounding marks for the 18s. In a perfect nor'easter (15 knots or so) there were about 23 modern 18s and a  bunch of Aussie and Kiwi Historical 18s/M  class running around, metres from the shore.

No-one - neither the tourists or the locals - seemed interested in the skiffs apart from the sailors in my party. Oh, and there were one other couple watching; turned out they sailed Herons or something. No one else batted an eyelid, much less turned around and went "hey, look an extremely expensive, hard to rig boat for athletic young men who have years of experience.....that's the sport for me!!"

I used to teach sailing in the harbour and found out that not even sailing students really care about 18s.....they just want to sail to picnic spots.

PS not sure whether the women should have to sail a cat.....aren't there many more women in monos? My friends on the Euro A Class/F16 scene say there's almost no women skippers on the fast boats. Maybe an OPEN singlehanded cat....I think Steve Brewin won the A Worlds at about 67kg and 5'6" so women could do OK in an open cat.

BTW down here we've now had about a season of the RSX Olympic/youth board. Popular opinion is that it will last one Games. It's about 25% heavier than the proto that won selection, is falling apart with poor manufacturer support, probably needs even more pumping than the Mistral, and in the normal conditions around most of the world (about 8 knots) the women/youth 8.5 version is actually slower than the original Windsurfer One Design. The only good point is that weekend warriors like me can now beat the Pro World Cup and Formula Windsurfing world champ around the course, 'cause she's gone RSX and I'm still on Mistral.

It seems to make the Yngling look good.


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 8:18am

Originally posted by Rupert

So, Maybe we need a third form of Spinnaker - one with the wow factor of the asym and the versatility of the conventional one. Over to all you budding sail designers...

 

By definition a Spinnaker is either Symetric or Asymetric!!!



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Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 8:23am

Originally posted by Chris 249

"To compete at Olympic level in the Laser or Laser radial also requires a full time committment to living and sailing on the international circuit."

Not sure.....

 

To stay at the top of the ISAF rankings requires you to do lots of regattas. To be competitive (win medals at European, World or Olympic) this is not always the case!



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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Jon Emmett

Originally posted by Rupert

So, Maybe we need a third form of Spinnaker - one with the wow factor of the asym and the versatility of the conventional one. Over to all you budding sail designers...

 

By definition a Spinnaker is either Symetric or Asymetric!!!

But it doesn't necessarily have to set in the way that they do today. The old Cherub idea with the extra long pole was the forerunner to the bowsprit, of course, used down under alot, from what I understand, but that has most of the disadvantages of both systems.



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by Jon Emmett

Originally posted by Rupert

So, Maybe we need a third form of Spinnaker - one with the wow factor of the asym and the versatility of the conventional one. Over to all you budding sail designers...

 

By definition a Spinnaker is either Symetric or Asymetric!!!

But it doesn't necessarily have to set in the way that they do today. The old Cherub idea with the extra long pole was the forerunner to the bowsprit, of course, used down under alot, from what I understand, but that has most of the disadvantages of both systems.

I've been toying with the idea of a swing rig, similar to those found on Marblehead RC yachts, for a two-man hiker. Whilst it wouldn't be as fast as either a conventional or asymmetric kite, it does have the advantage of being easy to use and flexible (i.e. varying pole angle but simple to gybe). Forestay tension would be low as a result of being attached to the end of jib boom, but as I intend to use a rotating wing mast it would be anyway.



Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 1:14pm

Originally posted by JimC



I'd like to see the 470 stay on as a mixed doubles class, one woman, one man, who crews and who helms unrestricted.

This of course sounds fine by our western standards, but this could be wholly inappropriate to muslims and I'd suspect many other religions and cultures too, and would just lead to a reduction in the participation of women in sailing. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4583955.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4583955.stm   It really must be a huge deal to have your wife/girlfriend living and travelling with another man or your boyfriend deciding he's going to embark on an 8 or 12 year olympic campaign with someone else's girlfriend. This is a really, really unpopular prospect for the olympic sailors, so I believe.

At the last 470 event I went to, there were teams from Pakistan, India, China, Japan and even Myanmar. That's BURMA, a military junta with one of the world's worst human rights records, represented out there on the 470 race course! It really is a remarkable class in terms of its global appeal. Oh, and the 470 footage from Athens was awesome.

 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Mar 06 at 1:20pm
Originally posted by Rupert

The old Cherub idea with the extra long pole


The Cherub class can't take any credit for that: it was standard fitment on Antipodean classes. I assume its the reason why the Laser 2 has a relatively long pole, I guess Bethwaite/Performance Sailcraft were compromising what was needed to gain decent performance with what they thought Northern Hemisphere sailors would accept. Presumably they didn't want to repeat the error of the Tasar being too advanced a boat for most Northern hemisphere sailors...

Originally posted by Jon Emmett

By definition a Spinnaker is either Symetric or Asymetric!!!

Funnily enough some early Cherub kites, like the skiffs and so on, although with luff and leech the same length and symettrical if you folded them in half were effectively asymettric with a leech and a luff, and the seam shaping done differently in each half: here's a photo. They must have been rigged with two guys on the luff and two sheets on the leech: goodness only knows what a nightmare they were to gybe.


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 4:43pm
ill say it again: what other options for womens olympic double hander are there, apart from the 29er xx?

-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: Bruce Starbuck
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 5:52pm
470.


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 6:13pm
come on there must be more than that!

-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 7:43pm
I think as well as getting a new class for women at the olympics, the Yngling should be dropped- looks crap. Replace it with the SB3, or even some team/ match racing?

-------------


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 7:46pm
In the UK the top Yngling girls tend to do a lot of SB3 sailing anyway!!!

-------------
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: Dead Air
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 7:56pm
How about a B14 for the women?


Posted By: Prince Buster
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 8:15pm
dunno....would they be heavy enough?  You could get some big German "Helgar the Horrible" on one boat and some skinny little English girls on another and they'd be blown away when it was windy.  I like the sound of the SB3 though.

-------------
international moth - "what what?"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Mar 06 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by mike ellis

come on there must be more than that!


Of current International Classes only the Fireball and Laser 2, which are kinda why bother making the change boats. Unlike the Bethwaite boats no UK designed boats have achieved any great International popularity in recent years so little point in suggesting one of them.

As I've said before there are virtually no Internationally distributed boats suitable for a women's Olympic boat. The Yngling got the nod because it was the only vaguely suitable keelboat that was sailed outside a limited geographical area.


Posted By: ypdWacko
Date Posted: 01 Apr 06 at 12:04am

I can't understand the negativity towards the current Olympic classes!

As many have pointed out, some of the classes are not widely sailed by the masses, but the Olympics can't be competed by the masses! The Olympics is an event that demands the highest level of skill in each sport from its competitors and this I believe is reflected in the choice of classes.

It is a shame that these classes are inaccessible to many and budgets pose a restraint to campaigning, but only when you reach the top of the tree in terms of squads do you move into classes like the Star and Yngling.

Of course the choice ends up being affected by politics, but adding more widely sailed and less technical classes would I fear dilute the quality at the top end of competition.

And as for excitment, Ben Ainslie carving a Finn downwind and anhililating all opposition has got to grab the attention of any keen sailor!?



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Apr 06 at 9:54am

Surely being selected for the Olympics will (unless the boat is horrifically expensive) ensure it spreads around the world, even if only in small numbers.. This is what the 49er did, wasn't it? And the Finn before that. Therefore new classes could be designed, tested and selected if good enough. If you look back through the IYRU's checkered history, they have done this several times, and occasionally politics hasn't been the winner! Though not often,it has to be said...

 



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 8:58am
Of the ISAF International classes (not including Olympic classes) the 2 person class with the greatest number of boats, the greatest number of countries sailing, stable class rules, suitable for 2 women (120-150kg), sailed already by many women... that would of course be the Snipe. Still a great boat after 75 years.

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Gordon


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 10:23am
Originally posted by gordon

would of course be the Snipe.


Or if they don't fancy those they can always use dugout canoes...


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 11:14am

JimC - it is obvious that you have never seen a modern Snipe. They are cheaper than many SMODs and offer amore sophisticated sailing experience.

Do Olympic classes only have to represent one aspect of our sport - the "acrobats on wires" side of it. I would have thought that a class that offers truly international racing, open to a wide range of physiques, in which neither boat speed nor an unending stream of new gear are a major issue, in which tactics, strategy and boat handling decide who wins, in which boats stay in close contact throughout the race...this is the kind of racing may sailors would like to represent their sport at the highest level.

Gordon

 



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Gordon


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 2:26pm
I was actually checking something about Snipes earlier today and noticed that there were only 2 women who have ever won the Worlds in 70 years or so. What gives with that, Gordon? I thought women would have done really well in Snipes?

By the way, how does a Snipe compare to say an Ent in "feel"? It's a lot heavier, does that give it a sort of "steam-train" "baby yacht" feel? Would it compare to an Ent the way a Finn compares to a Laser? Not that I've ever sailed a Finn or Ent, I'm just interesting in the secret for the undeniable appeal of the Snipe.


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 2:50pm

The Snipe Worlds are a limited entry event, with numbers qualifying depending on boat numbers in each country. There are separate Women's, Youth and Masters Worlds.

Snipes do tend to be sailed in countries were "macho" is the dominant behaviour style...which may also reduce the number of women sailing. The Russians have been using the Snipe as an introduction to international racing for their girls...who make a great impression whenever they sail in western Europe. There are also a godd number of mixed crews.

The Snipe is less tippy than the Ent. The high boom encourages some aggressive roll tacking, the automatic jib pole allows very tactical sailing down wind. I often describe the boat as an ultra light keelboat, which describes the feel. The boats are impressive in very light conditions, and yet in 20 knots of wind nearly the whole fleet is still concentrating on tactics rather than spped and survivial. The bow tends to dig in on a reach - one of the reasons the boat never adopted the spinnaker.

The Snipe is a boat for those brought up on Walker's "the Tactics of small boat racing", who have read the rules (and the case book)...

... and who appreciate an active social life. The Americans have a race "week" in the winter - a 3 day event on the inside (Gulf) coast of Florida, then everyone moves to Miami for another event, then the boats are shipped to Nassau for another 3 days racing. Nice work if you can get it. The American class association is reputed to tow a stainless steel concrete mixer to events - to mix the cocktails.

 



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Gordon


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 3:34pm
Originally posted by gordon

I would have thought that a class that offers truly international racing, open to a wide range of physiques, in which neither boat speed nor an unending stream of new gear are a major issue, in which tactics, strategy and boat handling decide who wins, in which boats stay in close contact throughout the race...this is the kind of racing may sailors would like to represent their sport at the highest level.

Gordon

Sounds like the Laser ...



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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 3:57pm

Which is why the Laser needs 3 different rigs... and when I last looked the Laser was a single-handed boat.

 

Gordon

 



-------------
Gordon


Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 4:12pm

I think the Snipe is fine for what it is but would not increase media appeal which is part of the ISAF requirement.

Rick



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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 5:31pm
The Snipe in the Olympics?  this is like getting the 100m guys to wear long shorts and lace up spikes ala Chariots of Fire - its ANCIENT, same as the Finn, Star, Yngling and Tornado, the 470 and Laser aren't exactly spring chickens but at least they have (reasonably) wide participation going for them and the 49er will look good on TV, except if it turns out to be a no-wind affair in China in which case everything will look a bit naff.

Less classes overall, more open classes, keelboat match-racing as well as fleet, boats provided by the Olympic hosts -- then we'll find out who's best and in a wide enough cross-section of disciplines that we'll get the best sailors across a good age and experience range

-------------
Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 Apr 06 at 5:45pm
I still think that team racing would be a great event for TV. A bit like the rugby 7s at the Commonwealth Games.

-------------
Gordon


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 3:55pm

Originally posted by getafix

ANCIENT...... Tornado, the 470 and Laser aren't exactly spring chickens but at least they have (reasonably) wide participation going for them and the 49er will look good on TV, except if it turns out to be a no-wind affair in China in which case everything will look a bit naff. 

tornados may be old but they have the same thing going for them as a 49er. they go like sh** off a shiny shovel. also they look great, my opinion only.



-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: billpayer
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 6:58pm

Getafix wrote as below,

The Snipe in the Olympics?  this is like getting the 100m guys to wear long shorts and lace up spikes ala Chariots of Fire - its ANCIENT, same as the Finn, Star, Yngling

have to agree, it's almost laughable that there are so many new classes, that look good and go exceptionally well and yet we still have classes like the Star and Yngling. You mention Chariots of Fire, the scary thing is that the Star was around even then, 1924 Olympics and the Star was designed in 1911. Nothing wrong as such with the boat, but the olympics are all about modern competition and a 1911 boat, the Star is a bit younger...1967!  There must be alternatives. They want to raise television viewing and staid old boats I'm afraid don't do it for me........  

 



Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 7:47pm

the olympics are all about modern competition ... so let's get rid of athletics - that's been part of the Olympics since 776 BC, wrestling and boxiing (648 BC), equestrian events (680 BC) because we only want modern events...

The next Olympics will no doubt consist of a single race for 49ers and a beach volley tournament...

Sorry, but the Olympics is not about modern competition but about the most competitive events... Good classes are not about looking good and sailing fast...good classes are about the quality of the sailor who are attracted to and remain faithful to the class.

Which is why the Finn is still the best heavyweight singlehander and the Star the best (only?) heavy weight doublehander. Which is why the Laser will stay an Olympic class for some time and the 470 will disappear when it is dropped from the Olympics (I still believe they should have chosen the Fireball), as will the 49er because sailors will always prefer to sail Int14s...

If we are looking for a women's class for the Olympics (personally I am in favour of  open events and narrower weight bands) then we have to choose between hiking, 1 wire or 2 wire boats.

If the preference is for close tactical racing then a hiking boat may well be prefered. Which class provides cheap international (ie not limited to anglo-saxon ex colonies) racing worldwide, has the largest number of countries sailing the class has a class structure with a proven capacity to organise major events and is being built in significant numbers...

I await your answers with bated breath

 

Gordon



-------------
Gordon


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by gordon

If we are looking for a women's class for the Olympics (personally I am in favour of  open events and narrower weight bands) then we have to choose between hiking, 1 wire or 2 wire boats.

If the preference is for close tactical racing then a hiking boat may well be prefered. Which class provides cheap international (ie not limited to anglo-saxon ex colonies) racing worldwide, has the largest number of countries sailing the class has a class structure with a proven capacity to organise major events and is being built in significant numbers...

 

enterprise?



-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: billpayer
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 8:18pm

Wrestling,boxing, athletics,all agreed, they have all been around since the games began, but they have evolved. The games today are based on the games of old, but they are a very different breed of athletes in all sports at that level today. I talked about modern competition, not modern events.

Evolution in all things, physical and technical, has pushed all the sports into new realms of competitivness and I think that sailing as a sport needs to evolve now as well. As I said, nothing wrong per say with the current classes, but some of them are getting a bit stodgy, maybe we just need a bit of evolution.....

However, my post just mentioned the Star and Yngling, the rest I think need to stay in for the moment and we need to look at options for a more modern keelboat/sports boat class for men, ladies and mixed.

But this is now taking us away from the starting thread of an Olympic womens class. I vote for the 29XX 



Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 8:39pm

If the preference is for close tactical racing then a hiking boat may well be prefered. Which class provides cheap international (ie not limited to anglo-saxon ex colonies) racing worldwide, has the largest number of countries sailing the class has a class structure with a proven capacity to organise major events and is being built in significant numbers...

Simple then ...... TASAR

Blaze '720'

 



Posted By: laser47
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 8:50pm
you know what gets me, you're debating womens olympic sailcraft yet how many of you are women? isn't it important that the people who will be invoved in this area get a word in

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Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 8:54pm

good point. im just going to keep my nose out for a while now.



-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: billpayer
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 9:09pm
But she's always telling me what to do!..........


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 9:12pm

Originally posted by laser47

you know what gets me, you're debating womens olympic sailcraft yet how many of you are women? isn't it important that the people who will be invoved in this area get a word in

They're free to say something too, as is anyone else. No-one is preventing olympic women/aspiring female olympic competitors getting involved in the discussion- hence the open forum.

What is your point exactly?



-------------


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 9:15pm

maybe her point is that weve already said everything before anyone else got their nose in so we should have shut up and listened for a while?



-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: laser47
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 9:19pm

i was just trying to say that it seems like people are genralising and making assumptions as to what women want (i.e tactical boat) . i'm not trying to say that all women wouldn't like a certian type of boat (picking on that aspect personally i'd go for somthing with a pretty equal mix of tactical and physical but that might just be my veiw). sorry if it came across wrong it just seemed like a pretty closed debate



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Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by laser47

i was just trying to say that it seems like people are genralising and making assumptions as to what women want (i.e tactical boat) . i'm not trying to say that all women wouldn't like a certian type of boat (picking on that aspect personally i'd go for somthing with a pretty equal mix of tactical and physical but that might just be my veiw). sorry if it came across wrong it just seemed like a pretty closed debate

Agree with youm there. Hopefully at the next review of olympic classes there will be a similar debate about the womens keelboat class to the one we've had here.



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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Harry44981!

next review of olympic classes there will be a similar debate about the womens keelboat class


Won't be a very long one: there's no alternative.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 10:14pm

Won't be a very long one: there's no alternative.

 

Why? It isn't as though any olympic aspirant sails an old boat anyway, so what does it matter if a new class is chosen? It will be the same people sailing it as sail the Yngling now, but maybe they would have more fun?



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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 10:34pm

The Enterprise is a nice boat - but it is very much a British and ex-colonies class. At the recent worlds all boats but one came from GBR or the ex-colonies - Ireland, India, Pakistan, Siri Lanka, South Africa... and Belgium.

 

as for the Snipe Worlds - 12 countries including USA, Japan, Uruguay, Spain, Brazil, Norway, Argentine, Russia, Portugal, Bahamas, Italy, Denmark, France , Canada and Sweden... Oh! and the winning crew were all female...

 

Gordon



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Gordon


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 Apr 06 at 11:01pm
Well Kit stenhouse seems to handle the musto skiff in all weather just fine, yet no ones mentioned that....??  Maybe it should replace the laser radial as the womens singlehander?   And no doubt some of you are now going to accuse that idea as obsurd!!  But why??  so far a womens boat is seen as a boat for lightweights, yet surely if anyones good enough to be selected for the olympics then they're good enough to sail any boat, weight regarding?? 


Doug


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 9:55am
Getting back to the original point about new womens olympic boat I'm still liking the idea of an open cat class (fast, exciting and capable of being designed to avoid advantage of either excessive or lack-of bulk & muscle power)

I'm also still liking the idea of open keelboat fleet and match-racing, perhaps a rule saying that 5 person keelboat, min 2 crew should be women?

Lot's of girlfriends I've known and their friends were lost from an early passion for sailing by the "glamour" of other things when we were teenagers, an injection of excitment into the womens classes and also some 'aspriational' pics on TV wouldn't hurt, I also think that an Olympic event that pitted mixed teams against each other would be quite unique in the Olympic setting and provide good stories and experiences for the competitors involved.  Yes, I know you're not going to reverse the trend completely, but it might help!

Sailing worldwide has men & women sailing together, why not at the Olympics and why have a 2-wire speed machine for the women? it can't be a good thing for them to be drudging along in Ynglings while the boys buzz past in 49ers...

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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: Chew my RS
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 10:43am

Sailing is a diverse sport and I suppose it all depends on what the IOC want to test from the sailors.  Judging by their definition of High Performance, I don't have much confidence in the way Olympic sailing is being organised.  However...

If they want the most 'spectacular' class a twin wire skiff is probably the way to go.  If they want the fastest they should pick a cat.  If they want a tactical boat, then go for a kiteless hiker. If they want the most televisual then team racing is probably the way to go.

The problem with picking a twin wire skiff is that they are very rare outside of Australia and UK.  I would guess that there are more members of my club than women who have raced twin wire skiffs in the whole of Europe, Asia, Africa, N America and S America combined.  So its not very representative of the sport.

Anyway, how many people (especially non-sailors) will ever find sailing fun, or understandable, to watch on the TV?  As whole races get condensed down to 30 seconds of footage, it is impossible to understand what is going on.  But a short sharp team race, say 30 minutes long, could be shown in its entirety and would be easy to follow.


Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 2:14pm
2 boat team racing with crews in skimpy tight fitting swimsuits - nautical equivalent of beach volley (admit it - you don't watch the beach volley to study the amazing ball control and the tactics)!

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Gordon


Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 2:35pm

Now I simply KNOW that someone is going to mention Quick Release trapeze hook... These sailors... They always want to come first...



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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Black no sugar

Now I simply KNOW that someone is going to mention Quick Release trapeze hook... These sailors... They always want to come first...



Good grief !!!!  You can't hold her back when she's on a roll




Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 3:03pm
I haste to mention that Pierre is NOT talking from experience..

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http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Apr 06 at 4:10pm
From my limited understanding of team racing, once you reach a certain standard, "last boat looses" doesn't work very well any more, as you will get races where no one will cross the finish line for fear of their team mate being shut out, and the skills are such that it can carry on all day that way. Seems more confusing than 1st scores 1 point, 2nd 2 points etc, and the points are added up at the end? Now the days of greens are gone, it seems pretty easy so long as the sails are very bright and different colours! The question would be, do the team racers want their sport to join the 5 ring circus and become totally professional?

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Jon Emmett
Date Posted: 06 Apr 06 at 8:36am
Team racing is part of the ISAF Worlds... I think the UK will be on the podium! Personnally if Team Racing was in the Olympics I would be trying for that spot!!! I think it would be good for the sport if TR was part of the games. My understanding is that the restriction is on the number of sailors, not the number of classes... So people could do fleet and team racing (like doing individual races and the relay). Although obviously some Olympic sailors would be the wrong size for freddies!!!

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http://www.amazon.co.uk/Be-Your-Own-Tactics-Coach/dp/0470973218/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312565831&sr=8-1 -


Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 06 Apr 06 at 6:53pm
team racing is fun to compete in. its also very tactical and alot about boat handling so non sailors wont be able to appreciate it to the full but it is still ver watchable. but you'd need to specify each teams sail colour before because otherwise teams might need the equivilant of away strips, adding to the expenses.

-------------
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318


Posted By: Harry44981!
Date Posted: 06 Apr 06 at 9:07pm
Use country flags/ provided boats

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Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 08 Apr 06 at 1:32pm
I actually think it is a shame to go with the same designer.

What about a new strict OD boat built to olypmic request?

We had the Finn all those years ago for example , built more or less to request- true?


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 09 Apr 06 at 12:09am
Well, more or less....it was actually mainly designed for inter-Scandanavian competition. 


Posted By: laser47
Date Posted: 09 Apr 06 at 7:08pm
i thought it was designed as a boat for some olympics or other from the lines of a scandinavian development class.

-------------


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 10 Apr 06 at 2:31am
Sort of; the Games were a consideration when the boats was chosen. In design terms, the Finn was very much like a cut-down Swedish C Class (development class) cruiser/racer canoe, with the pointy back cut off. If you look at Sarby's drawings, it was even originally trimmed down a long way by the bow so its waterline shape was very canoe-ish.

Like the Swedish canoes, the design competition called for a boat that could be used for cruising, with the skipper sleeping under a boom tent. Sarby was a hairdresser and designed the boat to be suitable for home building by amateurs like himself.  For many years, the boats used in the Olympics were  supplied by the  host country and few or no changes could be made.

I just mentioned those details, because the Finn sailors sometimes abuse the Laser because it was initially designed as a fun boat, and they say a real test of skills cannot be found in a SMOD. That's a funny attitude when the Finn (great boat) is actually a handyman hairdresser's cruising boat which was originally a SMOD at the Games!


Posted By: damp_freddie
Date Posted: 10 Apr 06 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Sort of; the Games were a consideration when the boats was chosen. In design terms, the Finn was very much like a cut-down Swedish C Class (development class) cruiser/racer canoe, with the pointy back cut off. If you look at Sarby's drawings, it was even originally trimmed down a long way by the bow so its waterline shape was very canoe-ish.

Like the Swedish canoes, the design competition called for a boat that could be used for cruising, with the skipper sleeping under a boom tent. Sarby was a hairdresser and designed the boat to be suitable for home building by amateurs like himself.  For many years, the boats used in the Olympics were  supplied by the  host country and few or no changes could be made.

I just mentioned those details, because the Finn sailors sometimes abuse the Laser because it was initially designed as a fun boat, and they say a real test of skills cannot be found in a SMOD. That's a funny attitude when the Finn (great boat) is actually a handyman hairdresser's cruising boat which was originally a SMOD at the Games!


You are on heck of a good font of facts Chris.  You should get a job at Y&Y!



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