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I know you all like a rules tangle..

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13911
Printed Date: 08 Aug 22 at 1:18pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: I know you all like a rules tangle..
Posted By: Bandin
Subject: I know you all like a rules tangle..
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:12pm
So today..


Two boats side by side both close hauled sailing on starboard.. about a boat lengths between them

The leeward boat got a little too close to an outcrop ahead and called for room to tack, then tacked. The windward boat didnt change course and said there was enough room for the leeward boat to dip behind, which he did. 

So who was right? Should the windward boat have tacked as requested, or was he correct in not tacking as the leeward boat was able to sail below him without any collision??

I know the rules say you have to keep clear when requested, but the requestee had room to sail behind him. 

This caused quite a discussion post race and would love to see others views.



Replies:
Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:20pm
If I remember correctly, it’s one of the few compulsory hails in the rule book. The leeward boat hails for room to tack and the windward boat must either tack immediately or hail ‘You tack’ and is then compelled to keep clear.

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:40pm
If he had room to tack behind, why did he request room to tack?

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:42pm
Yep. Its a safety thing. Windward must either tack, or say "you tack" in which case they must give room. There are no other choices. If windward thinks the hail is unnecessary then their only recourse is to protest.


20 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION
20.1 Hailing
A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack.
However, she shall not hail unless
(a) she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely, and
(b) she is sailing close-hauled or above.
In addition, she shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark and a boat
that is fetching it would be required to change course as a result of the
hail.
20.2 Responding
(a) After a boat hails, she shall give a hailed boat time to respond.
(b) A hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
(c) A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible,
or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the
hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.
(d) When a hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon
as possible.
(e) From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a
hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.


So if windward immediately hailed back "you tack" then all rules were obeyed, since leeward was given room to avoid. If windward didn't respond in the correct way then they technically broke 20.2c.

If leeward is in any doubt about whether there's enough room to tack they may as well hail, because windward can always hail you tack, and it means leeward is covered if someone has misjudged it.

Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book!



Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by JimC


Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book!


Yep.. there'll be some sleepless sailors tonight worried sick. Clap

The discussion was due to the fact the leeward boat called for room to tack, yet had room to tack and dip behind the windward boat which did not alter course. 

Post race the leeward boat said the windward boat should have tacked regardless.. the windward boat said the leeward boat had room to tack.

So are you saying you have to tack? even if you believe the call is false, then protest? Seems a bit daft.  


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:36pm
You have to either tack or hail back "you tack", and in the latter case you have to give the other boat room.


Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by JimC

You have to either tack or hail back "you tack", and in the latter case you have to give the other boat room.

Exactly.. so does 'room' include holding your course and the other boat successfully dipping behind you? The leeward boat says no.. the windward boat says yes. 


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 11:03pm
Leeward managed to tack without hitting windward, so there must have been (or windward gave) room to tack…


Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 6:48am
Depending on the circumstances a tack and immediate hard bear away is not guaranteed to be done successfully and if you don't get it quite right there is no safe exit and a T- boned boat. I don't think it is unreasonable to want a margin of error


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 7:43am
Originally posted by JimC


Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book!


To be fair to him at some clubs this comes up every race, at others it may never really crop up due to where they sail.


Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:17am
We have calls for tacking off the bank every week and the above situation often occurs. 

Because the outer boat didn't reply with "You Tack" and sailed on regardless, The outer boat is at fault and due a penalty . He could chose / have chosen to protest a needless call for water, but that wouldn't stop his being given a penalty.
Responding "YOU TACK" or tacking themselves is a MUST DO. 

Unfortunately over the years I have seen many "Tactical" calls for water, with the inner boat likely to deliberately to not tack at their best and tap the outer with their bow, if given a " You Tack" response.
Only all round video cameras can prevent this..

The worst situation I've ever seen, both sides of the fleet were calling for water off the river banks, and the middle of the fleet was calling for water round the buoy.. Me I,  was behind...  as the majority of the fleet sailed on, unable to turn, me and a couple of others, swept round the buoy leaving them to sort it out..

I'm glad I wasn't on the Protest committee that  day...


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Still sailing in circles


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:22am
The “room to tack” call can be a ploy to maintain tactical advantage by forcing the windward boat to tack, so compelling the windward boat to tack following the call would ruin the game.  

Two variants, are that the leeward boat calls, windward boat tacks, but leeward boat caries on a bit further before tacking.

The other, that the leeward boat calls when it had room to tack and tack back, but panics the windward boat to tack.  

Generally the windward boat is in a better position to judge the “you tack” call than the leeward helm, who would have to look over his/her shoulder 


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:32am
The windward / outer boat has to respond (either by tacking or hailing 'you tack') as already covered. 

Of course on port tack it's less of an issue, but if the boat calling for room to tack ends up on port, then they are keep clear boat. 

Sometimes the inside boat calls for room to tack, when they really have space to tack and duck. Or when the outside boat is far enough away that they have space to tack, then tack back again on to starboard. But in both instances it's not uncommon for the inside boat to think the hail 'room to tack' gives then rights to sail away from the bank on port as far as they would like. 


Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:54am
To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'.

The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient.  




Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Bandin

To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'.

The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient.  


I believe the onus would be on the windward boat to prove they gave enough room for the leeward boat to tack and duck them, remembering that the definition of room is not the minimum space required to manoeuvre, but the space required to do so in a 'seamanlike manner'.


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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: Jon Meadowcroft
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 9:46am
No onus on anyone to do anything as far as I can see in RRS.


Facts found:

Both boats hailed correctly

Leeward boat tacked

No collision


So the base assumption has to be that there was indeed room for leeward boat to tack and avoid the obstruction.



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:02am
I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)

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Robert


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:31am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)

You might find an hour or two on the Green at Cowes Week educational.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:41am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat,

I can only think you dont sail on a river or on a a confined puddle. Big smile

I learned to sail on a river and now sail on a tiny lake . This situation has  happened many times in every club race I have ever taken part in. It’s part and parcel of sailing on confined waters with loads of marks on the course , you have to use every cm of water Smile


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D-zero
Ex Laser x2
Ex British Moth x4
Ex Lightning 368
Ex Supernova


Posted By: Bandin
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:45am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)

I was ahead looking back but this was pretty much the situation.. wind was horrid yesterday, swinging 90deg constantly. 

There was no real protest other than a little grumbling on the part of the leeward boat but he (and others post race) were adamant windward was obliged to tack once called, whilst I and a couple who saw from behind disagreed and concluded leeward boat had plenty of space to tack and once tacked it was port/starboard so no issue. Leeward was annoyed he had to duck windward boat. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:54am
I sail on a twenty acre pool, using seven buoys, to make decent length laps we use every buoy, some of them are set quite close to the bank, to make rounding more interesting, similar to sand traps and bends on a golf course, have never put myself in this position, I would allow someone to play through, if they were that bothered.

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Robert


Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:57am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)
and there are four  other classes of boats to add to this....


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Still sailing in circles


Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:00am
imagine this lot when we start going the other way.

100 -150 boats plus tourists in the hire motor boats, all on 1.5 miles of river you can see how narrow it is.. 
The chances of sailing from the start line to Buoy 4 without a hail of water or room to tack are very slim...
Oh and that's a reasonably wide bit, if you try the 3 Rivers Race, the river Ant is 50ft wide and we have over 100 boats sail it from 14ft dinghies to 40ft broads cruisers

3 Rivers Race 28-29 May 2022 entries still open if you want to enter for a close quarter sailing challenge here.  http://www.3rr.uk/" rel="nofollow - Home (3rr.uk)

on the River Ant, during the 3RR  unfortunately only long tacks on view in the video below and their spaced out a bit...
https://youtu.be/WOpGhAqFBqg



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Still sailing in circles


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:11am
Looks exciting, not my cup of tea though, obviously I have been in cramped conditions, but will try to get clear at the first opportunity.

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Robert


Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 11:24am
Originally posted by 423zero

Looks exciting, not my cup of tea though, obviously I have been in cramped conditions, but will try to get clear at the first opportunity.
I get bored on big open waters, playing follow the leader is a lot less interesting , than when you know they can run up behind the earlier fleet and you get the opportunity to catch up..

With this type of sailing it's a case of looking ahead, at the next group of boats and predicting where they are likely to tack, and what obstructions may impede them. You then try and plot a course in your brain where to be . This often means an unfavourable tack to start with  to be in the right place when you get to them..

For instance with the Yeoman fleet coming towards you in the Picture, you set yourself up to be just tacking off the right hand back as they arrive so you are on, close hauled starboard, to cross through them....


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Still sailing in circles


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Bandin

To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'.

The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient. 


Ah, well in that case its "go and read the definitions": failure to do so is an all too common problem.

Leeward is obliged to tack, windward is obliged to give room. So what is room?

Room The space a boat needs in the existing conditions, including space to comply with her obligations under the rules of Part 2 and rule 31, while manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way.


So the obligations are that the tacking boat is obliged to keep clear, but the windward boat is required to give her enough room to do so. If there's no collision and the tacking boat was able to avoid without "unseamanlike" actions then everyone is good. This is covered in Case 35 in the case book.


CASE 35
Rule 20.2(c), Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Responding When a boat is hailed for room to tack at an obstruction and replies ‘You tack’, and the hailing boat is then able to tack and avoid the hailed boat in a seamanlike way, the hailed boat has complied with rule 20.2(c).
Facts
As two close-hauled boats approached a shore, L hailed W for room to tack. W replied ‘You tack’ and L then tacked immediately. After tacking, L bore away in a seamanlike way and passed under W’s stern, which she cleared by three feet (1 m) or more. L protested W under rule 20.2(c). The boats were 15 feet (4.5 m) in length and the wind was moderate. The protest committee decided that W failed to give room as required by rule 20.2(c) and disqualified her. W appealed.

Decision
W’s appeal is upheld, and she is to be reinstated. L’s actions showed that she had room to tack and avoid W. W therefore met her obligation under rule 20.2(c).




Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I sail on a twenty acre pool, using seven buoys, to make decent length laps we use every buoy, some of them are set quite close to the bank, to make rounding more interesting, similar to sand traps and bends on a golf course, have never put myself in this position, I would allow someone to play through, if they were that bothered.

Mmm that is on the smallish side. For prospective I sail on eight acres and we have nine buoys Smile


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D-zero
Ex Laser x2
Ex British Moth x4
Ex Lightning 368
Ex Supernova


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 1:09pm
Weirdest place I have sailed on is Banbury Cross, like a swimming pool, totally enclosed with concrete and concrete bottom, you can't get near the sides, concrete slopes up to wall, similar angle to a slipway, but the slipways are the steepest I have ever seen.

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Robert


Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 1:33pm
I think the Smallest I've ever sailed on sailed on was Shotwick Lake (near Chester) which IIRC is between 3 and 4 Acres..

Whereas here on this bit of the Norfolk Broads, when we are not on the Rivers, my club sails on Black Horse Broad which is around 7 acres..( the sailable bit that is )



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Still sailing in circles


Posted By: ohFFsake
Date Posted: 28 Mar 22 at 2:34pm
So L hailed for room to tack, W replied "You Tack".

It is perhaps worth noting that the hail of "You Tack" does not give L right of way. L remains keep clear boat throughout the entire exchange, the only onus rule 19 places on W is to give L room "to tack and avoid her". Note that L has to do the avoiding, not W.

So if L tacks when instructed to do so, then promptly bears away in a seamanlike manner to avoid W who maintains a steady course, no rule is broken. The very act of keeping clear demonstrates that sufficient room for them to do must have been given.




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