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Dinghy speeds

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13885
Printed Date: 25 Jun 22 at 8:10pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Dinghy speeds
Posted By: andyk
Subject: Dinghy speeds
Date Posted: 05 Jan 22 at 8:41pm
I just wonder, without exaggerating, what sort of speeds can the average dinghy achieve?
I am not interested in the special Ďbuilt for speed record holderí but the normal club sailboat.
What sort of speed  can a Lark or GP14 regularly achieve, an Enterprise, an Osprey, an RS200?
An RS Feva compared to another junior trainer, a Mirror,  could be quite enlightening. (incidentally, I hate the way the RYA hijack a perfectly good boat and designate it Ďjuniorí and thus effectively ruining its appeal to the majority of sailors. The Cadet, for instance, was designed as a junior boat, the Mirror was not)
The speed difference between the more traditional dinghies, compared to the designs of the last 20 or so years could tell a story or two.
I have never seen a list of this sort, and I think it could be quite interesting.




Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Jan 22 at 9:04pm
The Hartley 15 we had on trial at my club easily outpaced all the Comets, Enterprise, GP14, Larks, only Lasers could match it. Hartley was sailed by our best sailor, rest of boats were sailed by good through to beginners.
Hartley 15 is a rotomould for those that don't know.

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Robert


Posted By: Chris Bowen
Date Posted: 05 Jan 22 at 10:20pm
https://www.rs200sailing.org/index.asp?Fleet=rs200&selection=Speed%20Records" rel="nofollow - https://www.rs200sailing.org/index.asp?Fleet=rs200&selection=Speed%20Records


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Jan 22 at 10:31pm
Most more traditional style boats top out pretty close to the so called "hull speed" which is 1.34 * square root of length in feet giving a figure in knots. For many years the fastest well rcorded dinghy speed was a bit under 15 knots by a Flying Dutchman. The true skiff types will go a lot faster though.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 05 Jan 22 at 10:32pm
4-5kts upwind, 65-100% of wind speed on a broad reach for an ďaverageĒ dinghy.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jan 22 at 10:52pm
Do you mean average speed around a course, speed relative to wind speed or max speed ever recorded, instantaneously or over set time or distance? Portsmouth numbers are probably a fair representation of how fast a class is around a course and GPS speed challenges will give an idea of momentary maximums. FWIW I believe my Spice once achieved 19 knots in the hands of it's previous owner, the best I can recall logging in the Blaze is around 15 knots but GPS is not the most reliable in moving water.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 7:57am
I think the OP is after a speed in mph/kph/Knots

 The answer is "not as much as you think while you're sailing it"!

I pretty much agree with the figures posted.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 9:44am
My fastest ever recorded top speed using a Garmin on a dinghy was 18.2 knots on a Musto Skiff.

It took ages to push over the 16 knot barrier for me personally, but 20+ is achievable if you really know what you are doing.

The fasted I felt I ever went on a dinghy was a little over 14 knots on an RS300!

Speed is relative - given most sailing (in the UK at least) is sub-planning, I'd say glide and momentum brings a greater sense of satisfaction than all out speed.


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 10:41am
A good source of real recent data of max speeds over a very wide selection of classes is available from just six weeks ago from the GPSs at the Draycote Dash in November here;
http://enter.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?id=48265&eventid=222049&templ=222049" rel="nofollow - https://enter.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?id=48265&eventid=222049&templ=222049

The bottom of the page has them PY adjusted which is interesting for comparing max speed capability relative to their average performance based on Great Lakes PYs.

The speeds would have been set in the Sunday's pursuit race which was probably an average windspeed of about 14kn but gusty with gusts up to about 18kn to produce these speeds.
The course had lots of angles with these speeds likely set on a medium or broad reach at the leeward end of the course where the wind was cleaner.
High leverage boats (trapezes) may favour a tighter angle for max speed whereas higher canvased lower leverage boats may favour a broader angle.

Photos do suggest it is true that you speed is 
"not as much as you think while you're sailing it!"! 
 and that large amounts of spray are not necessarily a good indicator of going fast;
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/244201/Gilbert-and-McGranes-505-wins-the-Draycote-Dash" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/244201/Gilbert-and-McGranes-505-wins-the-Draycote-Dash


Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 10:51am
Iíve recorded 15kts in my laser, on GPS but that was with at least 2kts of tide and during a very big gust on a broad reach. It was just on the very edge of being in control.

Seem to max around 11kts on GPS in a National 12, but I sail on a tidal river so that has an impact too.

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3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 11:06am
My experience is that dinghies start to plane around 8 knots and are planing by10 knots, 12 knots feels fast. Windsurfers actually start to plane at very similar speeds* but go much faster with 25 knots being pretty achievable for an average bod like me with 28/29 knots being a bit like the 16 knot barrier TT mentions in a dinghy, passing that requires a change in technique and courage.

* As, surprisingly, does my RIB.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 11:38am
Aero 7 seems to be becoming the dominant sail size, good turn of speed.
Nice to see the H2 represented, dedicated bunch of owners.

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 12:07pm
Those Aero's are bloody quick offwind in a blow, I was maxed on the wire in my Farr 3.7 and an Aero 7 came past me like I was stood still.

As to what the OP is looking for, join the queue, an actual factual performance list not perverted by the prevarications and gerrymandering of the illuminati on the pyag is long overdue.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 12:24pm
Needs a spreadsheet of speeds obtained from various windspeeds, upwind, downwind. etc.
No idea what use it would be though ? Handicap racing would be governed by PY anyway. you could have the fastest dinghy in the world but still be beaten by a Topper.


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Robert


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 1:44pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Needs a spreadsheet of speeds obtained from various windspeeds, upwind, downwind. etc.
No idea what use it would be though ? Handicap racing would be governed by PY anyway. you could have the fastest dinghy in the world but still be beaten by a Topper.
RYA publishes a number of such spreadsheets to help race officers set courses that achieve a given target race time - see:  http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/running-racing/speed-charts" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/running-racing/speed-charts


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 6:20pm
Iíve had the fastest craft in the race* on one RTC Wednesday - Kona Carbone windsurf board.

Clocked over 30 knots once on that bad boy with a 7.8 double cam freerace sail - Iíd like to see a 49er get anywhere near that on paper.

Why then did Laser Radials beat me over the water?

1) Iím not that good
2) it was not planing conditions
3) some one put a proper beat in the course
4) top speed is a redundant in benchmarking disparate craft

PY - best youíre gonna get. If you donít value it, donít do it anymore. I donít.

(* straight line speed, reaching)


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 6:47pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Iíve had the fastest craft in the race* on one RTC Wednesday - Kona Carbone windsurf board.

Clocked over 30 knots once on that bad boy with a 7.8 double cam freerace sail - Iíd like to see a 49er get anywhere near that on paper.

Why then did Laser Radials beat me over the water?

1) Iím not that good
2) it was not planing conditions
3) some one put a proper beat in the course


(* straight line speed, reaching)

Your mistake was bringing a knife to a gunfight, you should have used a 'proper' Raceboard Smile


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 06 Jan 22 at 7:36pm
98 KM/h on a board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pMJmOG5J7s

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 12:26am
Originally posted by turnturtle

My fastest ever recorded top speed using a Garmin on a dinghy was 18.2 knots on a Musto Skiff.

It took ages to push over the 16 knot barrier for me personally, but 20+ is achievable if you really know what you are doing.

The fasted I felt I ever went on a dinghy was a little over 14 knots on an RS300!

Speed is relative - given most sailing (in the UK at least) is sub-planning, I'd say glide and momentum brings a greater sense of satisfaction than all out speed.

Lol, I recall 20 knots being much less scary in my Musto than 14 knots in the 300Ö that was bum twitching time for sure


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RS200 and returning to a Musto, ex 300


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 11:56am
(not me) RS Aero - 23.9 knots

http://youtu.be/BiQSvBaqsp4" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/BiQSvBaqsp4



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 12:17pm
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that Albacore claim that was doing the rounds when I first turned up here.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 12:19pm
What claim ? 
Nothing wrong with Albacore.


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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by 423zero


What claim ?†
Nothing wrong with Albacore.


Somebody was making ridiculous claims as to how fast they'd made one go.
Must have kept lots of folk up claiming somebody on the internet is wrong.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 1:26pm
Just in case you don't want to read old thread, here is article that caused disbelief.
http://www.albacore.org.uk/results/2007/internationals2007.htm


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Robert


Posted By: Ozzytub
Date Posted: 07 Jan 22 at 2:27pm
I was just saying to my son driving a car is now the most boring thing you can do and i need a boat which was quick and exciting.
This thread makes me realize how slow a dinghy is but how exciting they can be. 


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 3:28am
What evidence is there that the Aero did 23knots plus?  That seems exceedingly doubtful considering the speed of other craft and the Aero's moderate overall performance.

There may have been a GPS reading of 23+, but GPS units "spike" a lot and therefore in competitions like GPS windsurfing there are rules in the units that can be used and the way results can be interpreted.

On the other hand, if the Aero IS that fast then the sailors must be terribly bad for it to have a yardstick little faster than a Laser.  Personally I'd say it's far more likely that the 23 knots figure is a vast exaggeration.


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 8:38am
Originally posted by CT249

What evidence is there that the Aero did 23knots plus?† That seems exceedingly doubtful considering the speed of other craft and the Aero's moderate overall performance.
There may have been a GPS reading of 23+, but GPS units "spike" a lot and therefore in competitions like GPS windsurfing there are rules in the units that can be used and the way results can be interpreted.
On the other hand, if the Aero IS that fast then the sailors must be terribly bad for it to have a yardstick little faster than a Laser.† Personally I'd say it's far more likely that the 23 knots figure is a vast exaggeration.


A simple Google would have shown you this

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=news&nid=10677" rel="nofollow - Speed Freak


Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 10:46am
Actually, it doesn't. There's nothing on the RS forum to show what GPS was used, how the data was analysed, etc etc. These are critical factors in GPS speeds, which is why there are restrictions under GPS speedsailing, for example.

Why should we believe this figure and not the 22 knots or whatever the Albacore "achieved"?  Why should we believe this figure and not the 60 knots that the guy at my old club carried his big headsail in?  He had an anerometer so surely it must be true.......



Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 12:09pm
Think your taking this a little to seriously WinkSmile


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 12:16pm
there is a lot that's suss about the aero top speed.

- Track looks very shaky, suggest large GPS error.
- Speed graphs look peaky (27 mph down to <15 then back up again all within a few seconds)
- Short runs (0.3 miles)
- Seems other recording were done on a Garmin Edge 520 he has. I have used this to, but without a good gps fix on glonass satellites and recording set to 1 hz then it's pretty useless for speed. It's designed to be used with a bike wheel speed sensor. 
- max speed on a doppler device for same class is 20.6 knots (and that was speed a 1 second peak over a knot more than the speeds a second either side). 

On both the windsurfer and 800 for a 1 km run top speed will only be about 10-15% more than average. Here we have doublings of speed. That could just a characteristic of chasing huge gusts in mega wind in a small uno sail though. My windsurf speeds and 800 speeds are all done at a fairly narrow AWA. 

The aero's can get out in massive conditions though (although to be fair so can I on windsurf kit). But the 800 I wouldn't really be leaving the beach in 30 knots. So perhaps it's plausible, but the evidence for the 23.9 knots isn't rock solid. 

I think you could improve class speed competitions like this by just asking for 1 hz data and have peak speed defined as 2 seconds and then have a 10 second record too. 10 Seconds would be short enough that you don't fall out of an gusts, but long enough to have some confidence in the data (at 1 hz). 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 12:44pm
There's a reason speed records get set at Weymouth over a 500 mtr course.

Those recordings anyone who goes for GPS speeds will tell you are likely as not spikes, probably caused by pitching in dinghies, I very much doubt either our Albacore which tbh nobody took any more seriously than they take the Aero actually acheived that speed.

I'd recommend any of you do a Weymouth speed trials, it's great fun, and there are prizes for the fastest mono and cat and daily prizes, which are interesting in boat/board speed over wind speed, I had three great years messing about doing it.

If I were RS I'd have someone do it and see if any harbour records for mono hulls could be broken.

Actual speed over water as we all know can get quite exhilerating to the point of scary, but the camaraderie and 'after you henry' attitude the competitors have down there compared to the normal battle for start line space is refreshingly gentlemanly and occasionally eccentrically so.



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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 2:28pm
So here is an example from the 800. Breeze was about 25 knots.

Here is pretty much raw footage for a 1:43 run which includes a gybe (just cropped the mast cam so overlay it). GPS recorded on a garmin Fenix with glonass and smart recording (just realised I haven't changed it to 1 hz!). So take it with a pinch of salt, I stopped using GPS for analysis as without doppler and 30 hz it's pretty difficult to draw any conclusions. But I just putting it forward as an example of pretty smooth and non-peaky data. 

https://www.strava.com/activities/5189813436/analysis/607/640" rel="nofollow - Link to activity 
[TUBE]https://youtu.be/PGW8hiF2zr0[/TUBE]


Before the gybe (46s) max speed is 37.8 kmh (20.4 knots) and average is 37 kmh (19.97). 
For the full 1.43 max is the same an average is 35 kmh (18.89 knots) over a distance of ~1 km. That includes a drop down to 16.9 kmh during the gybe.  I wouldn't be claiming any concrete top speeds from this, but it is a decent example of what okay data might look like. 

compare with the aero speed trace


RS800 full run with gybe



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 3:27pm
See following post, this one removed due to formatting issues.








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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 3:30pm
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=237&PN=1&title=fastest-dinghy
Above link from 2004, 24 pages, no abusive comments, this post today, would be met with abuse and derision, how times change.


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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 4:37pm
Oh for sunny weather again, nice video, if I could have found a reliable crew, think I'd like to use an 800 they're great boats.

Only time I've been really quick in a dinghy is with a crew, once in a very strong offshore wind in an L3K only time I think I've ever actually fully planed upwind, and the other time down the back of the Round Sheppy Island race, so fast in fact it literally stripped all the gel coat off the bottom of the Alto. We don't often get conditions conducive to real speed, waves and chop get in the way, significant I can still remember those two incidents both with my dear departed windsurfing friend and crew God rest his soul, Steve Avery never since. Fstest I've been wind assisted is on a windsurfer or kite, other than that I once got dragged water ski racing at 80 + mph on a massive twin rig a long long time ago, that made my eyes water. lol.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 5:51pm
My speedpuck gave me a reading of over 120 knots, with a couple of others of 70 plus, when out sailing in my K1.
Of course i believe it, though thousands wouldnít 


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 6:14pm
20 knots is about 15 times faster than my garden shed, according to GPS.
The shed is firmly bolted to concrete foundations.

GPS, in amateur hands is essentially unsuitable for measuring speed.
Especially low speeds over short durations.
Which is a shame really.
It would be nice to know how fast my Laser was really going in those crazy surfing moments, although I'd never have the time (or presence of mind) to look at the readout.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 7:27pm
Though GPS will not be very accurate for speed itís not to bad for distance. Why not use GPS to sail a suitable distance from a buoy in the course relative to the wind you would like to test and drop a second buoy. Then simply sail and time. The longer the distance the more accurate. 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 7:43pm
Exactly as we do for Club speed league.

We have a circle of 12 marks of 900 metres dia. Pick your angle and time yourself between the two opposites. We then calculate both adjusted and real, alright the circle may not always be spot on but come on, it's a bit fun for windy days.




Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 7:45pm
iGRF. I know it goes against the popular grain but two person boats are (in my opinion) the best route to easy speed. 


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 8:08pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Exactly as we do for Club speed league.

We have a circle of 12 marks of 900 metres dia. Pick your angle and time yourself between the two opposites. We then calculate both adjusted and real, alright the circle may not always be spot on but come on, it's a bit fun for windy days.



What club is that, I have visited a club with that set up and canít remember which one it was 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 9:22pm
Kielder Reservoir SC.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 08 Jan 22 at 10:49pm
Originally posted by Do Different

iGRF. I know it goes against the popular grain but two person boats are (in my opinion) the best route to easy speed.†

The reason sailing dinghys took my leisure time over, was two person boats, I miss it to this day. But I have learned so much more after being forced to single hand.

Eventually I shall be forced to back end something, hopefully with a grandchild up the other end, something to look forward to still, but it will be a while before we chase top end speeds and quite honestly boats aint really the place to do it. It's nice to know how fast you went, but ultimate speed is about having the most power with the least wetted surface.

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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Jan 22 at 7:13am
Absolutely iGRF. For me, it's about the sailing, sensation of speed and quite often in company fun shared is fun doubled. 

Cats would be faster than both my boats but for me they hold no appeal, there are "easy" foilers appearing which are faster still and appeal even less.




Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 09 Jan 22 at 7:28am
Originally posted by Do Different

Kielder Reservoir SC.

Thanks Iíve be racking my brain for months. Fantastic club, especially the log burner 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 09 Jan 22 at 7:39am
Originally posted by Do Different

Absolutely iGRF. For me, it's about the sailing, sensation of speed and quite often in company fun shared is fun doubled. 

Cats would be faster than both my boats but for me they hold no appeal, there are "easy" foilers appearing which are faster still and appeal even less.



100% - close racing regardless of speed is far more appealing. Some of my most enjoyable sailing has been in a 17ft 1906 local one design with a lot of pig iron in the bottom. They all just reached hull speed and that was it but great racing. Raced ICs and the room for error is minimal so easy to get spat out the back and stay there. Cats I find boring and thought Iíd like to have an afternoon on a foiler not much appeal. Not seen an entry foiler that can perform upwind in a range of conditions. Boards and that inflatable wing look OK. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Jan 22 at 7:42am
Thanks to the current Committee we now have a bigger and better log burner. 
edit add.
Our Windsurfer instructor is also sharing his interest in foiling boards. We have a member with one of those free inflatable wing foiling setups. 
Room for all on Kielder @ 2500 acres.   


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 10 Jan 22 at 6:30pm
We have foily things all over Carsington. Foiling boards now as common as non foilers, inflatable kite things, wazps and the odd moth. None really appeal .. the foiling boards are only faster in medium wind conditions, the kite foilers very slow and quite unweildy ( though there is one young woman who can do it and makes it look fun ). The foiling dinghies are very quick ( when upright) but go along so smoothly there is none of the splash, bounce and drama you get from a planing dinghy ( or conventional wind surfer ), though gybing looks fun. I've never clocked either of my boats at more than 13knots but blow me, a 130kg Javelin, planing flat out in a force 6 with half the boat out the water feels very fast indeed ( and rather dangerous due to the forces involved ) I doubt you get that on a kite foiler .. maybe in big waves?


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Javelin 558
Contender 2574
V3000 3604 ...lapse of reason



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