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Is that it then?

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13875
Printed Date: 25 Jun 22 at 8:55pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Is that it then?
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Is that it then?
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 2:04pm
Are we ever going to see another performance racing dinghy released?

After the spate of D0, Aero and H2, all great boats but not everyones cup of tea, are we never going to see anything new, is it game over for new builds?

Back to putting lipstick on pigs then?

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Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 3:11pm
Not strictly performance, but I would like a dinghy for beach use, simple to use, a windsurf dinghy, would like it to be fast as well.

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Robert


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 3:24pm
In some ways I hope it is it for a while.

You are a successful marine leisure businessman so I can partly understand your drivers and frustration. 

While we type and witter on about relative differences and subtle nuances there may be a load of potential entrants to the pastime who simply want to hear simple language and be presented with a few clear options.

Get people sailing for the fun of it, that seems a more pressing priority to me for the time being and there are plenty of boats already in circulation to fulfil that role.

To my mind there are two issues going on and I am not sure they have much in common. A thriving small boat industry and mass participation in simply sailing.  
  


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Not strictly performance, but I would like a dinghy for beach use, simple to use, a windsurf dinghy, would like it to be fast as well.


Maverick?

Suspect not fast, though.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 4:36pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Not strictly performance, but I would like a dinghy for beach use, simple to use

You mean - the Laser.
It might catch on, you never know


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 5:21pm
There was that "Foiling Dinghy" that launched at last years boat show which looked like a D0 with foils off an America Cup boat. Looked cool to my eye and probably fun to razz around in but not something I would seek to race. My personal view is that it is super hard to get into the singlehanders market - you either need to be a corporate with the heft of RS or else you need to be a niche player willing to take a bit of a "lifestyle view" of business in that you do it because you love it but are retired or have a second income which is actually exactly where the H2 is at. We have seen a number of classes be tried by the mass market builders and be quickly cast aside if they do not hit the volume targets required which is the key blocker that I see in the market today.

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 5:23pm
What the sport needs is some 20 to 30 year old designers and boat builders to design and build what they want, not boats for dinosaurs like us.

Probably will have foils and some kind of wing thing that you can hold onto and wave in the air ...


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:09pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Probably will have foils and some kind of wing thing that you can hold onto and wave in the air ...


We're already gearing up for Wing foiling as the inand waters open up to it, can't see it catching on as a race sport for somewhile, we've had kitefoiling for some time but it's growth aint natural, kind of force fed as a potential Olympic pathway, not gathering huge momentum, well not in this country anyway.

I suppose it's my windsurfing background that needs a new board every couple of years to keep the interest focussed, trouble is everything I seem to show the remotest interest in genuinely does up and die, I'm even finding myself looking at OKs FFS still can't quite understand the attraction.

I just don't quite get why the rest of y'all don't want new stuff and if it does come along like the other things I like, bikes,m/cycles, boards etc, just rush out and buy..


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:16pm
True performance dinghies haven't been selling well for years, especially adult ones. I expect the RS800 is as popular as any and the highest sail number I spotted in their 2021 champs results was 1247, and in the 2018 results 1232. 5 boats a year. Damn, I bet people are just queueing up for a share of that action.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:19pm
So is it a lack of uptake to racing generally or performance rather than washing bowls in particular I wonder.


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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:45pm
Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by H2

Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?


Well in a way I quite envy you in that you've found a great boat you like and can do all that, the joys of being clinically obese I guess.

But meanwhile what is there for us normal shaped people?

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:58pm
Griff, tell me a better boat than a Enterprise? Light, easy to use, plenty of them, really OLD design, does it need to be got rid of?

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Robert


Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 7:52pm
If you look at the classes that are doing well you are looking in the conventional, slow comparatively and manoeuvre able. This give you the chan e of attracting the largest group of sailors. People with limited skill and agility can sail them and serious sailors will sail anything that gives them there competitive fix. The only outlier is the musto skiff that has high performance, difficulty paired with it being a singlehanded and pretty low cost to own. Foiling is a minority endeavour as the racing is not that great and it alienates those essential mass sailors through difficulty, cost and low reliability.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by 423zero

really OLD design, does it need to be got rid of?


Well lets make a critique of a typical 50s design without naming classes.

Hull shape - unsteady at speed, not very manageable gybing. Favours lighter crews than 21stC average population.

Interior Layout - even though somewhat updated in recent construction is outdated and expensive, and having originally being designed with old school family sailing and construction in wood in mind has poor ergonomics.

Rig - old school rig has poor gust response making the boat unnecessarily difficult to sail in gusty conditions. Small roach and long boom make the boat more challenging to gybe than it might be. Sheeting angles not ideal, sheeting positions forced by jib shape (itself not positioned as designed) not ergonomic.
Batten layout tends to cause end batten poke and sails lose performance faster than necessary.

Foils. Unsophisticated shapes geared around plywood or sheet metal less effective than they could be, also increasing handling difficulty.

Hull construction in general. Many detail features left over from original design in wood, unnecessarily complex and expensive to build. Heavier than would be needed if layout were optimised for modern construction.

Probably no single old school class has all of these issues, but most of them have most. Now you might say that no current class fixes all those issues, and I fear you'd be right, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

The trouble is there are other problems too. If you solve everything on that list, and especially the weight carrying, which means length, you end up with a boat that is a lot faster than its 50s equivalent, and may well be fast enough to make the boat unappealing to a sizeable chunk of its potential market. But if you deliberately slug the hull shape to bring the speed down, it loses the crisp feel of a throughbred and starts to feel like an unappealing barge.

Its not easy!


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2

Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?


Well in a way I quite envy you in that you've found a great boat you like and can do all that, the joys of being clinically obese I guess.

But meanwhile what is there for us mini people?

 

The thing is they are plenty of boats that fit your small but perfectly formed body shape. 
But singlehanded wise most of them are  slow boats streaker/Europe etc that you have no interest in and thats without revisiting the  aero/zero that you have strong views about. Even you cannot rewrite physics, re size of person to size of  boat .

But I do understand why you donít want want to go the slow boat route . But as Jim c has said there are no perfect boats , so compromises are always part of boat choices . Smile





Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat



Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2

Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?


Well in a way I quite envy you in that you've found a great boat you like and can do all that, the joys of being clinically obese I guess.

But meanwhile what is there for us perfect people?

The thing is they are plenty of boats that fit your small but perfectly formed body shape.†
But singlehanded wise most of them are †slow boats streaker/Europe etc that you have no interest in and thats without revisiting the †aero/zero that you have strong views about. Even you cannot rewrite physics, re size of person to size of person .
But I do understand why you donít want want to go the slow boat route . But as Jim c has said there are no perfect boats , so compromises are always part of boat choices .†Smile



True, but there is so much of this these days.. I'm thinking of starting SLM, Short Lives Matter.

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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 10:13pm
SLM could gain traction.

But what ever you do for god sake donít call it GRF Lives Matter lol LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I suppose it's my windsurfing background that needs a new board every couple of years to keep the interest focussed

.......

I just don't quite get why the rest of y'all don't want new stuff and if it does come along like the other things I like, bikes,m/cycles, boards etc, just rush out and buy..

If the manufacturers hadn't been so determined to sell us a new board even year maybe windsurfing would be a lot healthier than it is now. The outlawing of custom (read low production volume) boards in the transition from Div 1 to Raceboards, followed by the manufacturers dropping them and trying to sell us something totally unsuitable for 90% of venues and sailors (i.e. Formula but previously dedicated slalom boards or low volume wave boards did similar damage) killed off grass roots windsurfing. 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by iGRF

I suppose it's my windsurfing background that needs a new board every couple of years to keep the interest focussed

.......

I just don't quite get why the rest of y'all don't want new stuff and if it does come along like the other things I like, bikes,m/cycles, boards etc, just rush out and buy..

If the manufacturers hadn't been so determined to sell us a new board even year maybe windsurfing would be a lot healthier than it is now. The outlawing of custom (read low production volume) boards in the transition from Div 1 to Raceboards, followed by the manufacturers dropping them and trying to sell us something totally unsuitable for 90% of venues and sailors (i.e. Formula but previously dedicated slalom boards or low volume wave boards did similar damage) killed off grass roots windsurfing. 

I think the sport developed up its own a**e, however the same could be said for quite a few dinghy classes, where previously a helm could pick up a newbie crew and be half competitive.  

Someone at our club has recently bought an Albacore as a boat where their wife/crew can be comfortable in the front end Ö she now says there is actually nowhere to sit Ö too many controls and ropes, but at least her knees are below her hips when sailing.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 10:32am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons



If the manufacturers hadn't been so determined to sell us a new board even year maybe windsurfing would be a lot healthier than it is now. The outlawing of custom (read low production volume) boards in the transition from Div 1 to Raceboards, followed by the manufacturers dropping them and trying to sell us something totally unsuitable for 90% of venues and sailors (i.e. Formula but previously dedicated slalom boards or low volume wave boards did similar damage) killed off grass roots windsurfing.†


It wasn't the manufacturers that 'killed off' windsurfing, it might have been magazines promoting only high wind, it might have been the advent of other sports entering the windsurfing supply chain, but it was definitely the RYA restrictions on one man schools in the late 90's closing literally dozens of independant schools by RYA inspectors who coincidently owned larger commercial centres allied to the RYA's then pathway scheme. One Ironical failure was that a particular school owner was not sufficiently power/rescue boat trained, (he ran the inshore rescue service for the RNLI at Pevensey) It was the RYA mismanagement of the sport that effectively killed it, just as the same mismanagement is killing off sport dinghy racing as we write.

It's all too easy for the upper echelon of one sector of a given marine business to collude with the powers that be within the RYA for its own ends, which are not necessarily ends that benefit the sport as a whole. Now once upon a time Windsurfing had a committee of vested interests working alongside the RYA head of department, it was this committee that brought about Div 1 for instance in an effort to limit the effect Div 2 was having on racing accessibility. It was also tasked with maintaining a retail structure, since it was felt the failure of the dinghy market business model had limited the wider promotion of that sport. It didn't take long however for the dinghy types to cheat the system (which was designed to only use products sourced via Retailers thereby continuing their support of the racing market,) and it dissolved into broadly what you have today.

You have to ask yourself, why is it that Holland, a country very similar to ours has such a successful windsurfing market and ours has gone away, and I would point the finger squarely at our sports Governing body. It is why all the new sports that come along are kept away from their ministrations, Kite, SUP, Wing. It's too late to do much for windsurfing now, but those of us that experienced the complete disaster the RYA wrought upon us know to keep any new sport out of their grasp.

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 10:41am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

If the manufacturers hadn't been so determined to sell us a new board even year maybe windsurfing would be a lot healthier than it is now. The outlawing of custom (read low production volume) boards in the transition from Div 1 to Raceboards, followed by the manufacturers dropping them and trying to sell us something totally unsuitable for 90% of venues and sailors (i.e. Formula but previously dedicated slalom boards or low volume wave boards did similar damage) killed off grass roots windsurfing. 

I think the sport developed up its own a**e, however the same could be said for quite a few dinghy classes, where previously a helm could pick up a newbie crew and be half competitive.  

Without wishing to drag the thread further off topic (but I'm prepared to risk it...) I partially agree, it was a new sport and rapid development was to be expected, where it all went wrong IMHO was when the initial development had arrived at Raceboards and medium volume short boards that the average sailor could sail. The manufacturers needed to sell more product and the windsurfing media wanted new stuff to write about so they jointly promoted this years 'new big thing' (DSB, Formula or WHY, difficult or impossible to sail by the average club sailor) and ignored the grass roots (as did the training bodies who, effectively, cast of their youth sailors into the wilderness if they failed to make the grade.

iGRF, Don't get me started about the RYA back in the '90's and their 'Team 15' setup who wouldn't organise event that shared the water with UKBSA adult race events, the consequence being that nearly all young racers were lost to the sport when they turned 16 'cos they didn't know anybody racing the adult series'. If they had raced alongside us they would have got to know the local sailors rather than having to join in with a new group (pretty intimidating for a 16 YO who has never raced alongside adults before). 


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 3:06pm
Don't know much about it, just that my club building had a large windsurf shop and school and disappeared overnight, eighties or early nineties, a moon light flit.

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 3:31pm
So all that windsurf stuff aside is dinghy racing ever going to see a resurgence enough to satisfy any boatbuilders to commit to new performance models or are we now destined to reach for the lipstick and find new pigs to apply it to?

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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 4:12pm
Is dinghy racing really that broken? I mean there are a number of classes with their biggest turnout at nationals this past year. Open meetings are well attended for the classes on my scope. This years "great lakes" winter series kicked off last weekend with 87 boats at Draycote. Plenty going on out there Graeme; I am not sure that racing is broken but I am not sure if makes sense for builders to keep pushing out new models for the reasons I outlined above.

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 5:29pm
I think dinghy sailing/racing is approaching the healthiest it's been since the '60s but dinghy building was always, mostly, and relatively, a cottage industry. Even the likes of RS and the various Laser/ILCA builders are still pretty small fry in terms of turnover and number of employees. But I don't see that as a bad thing, it's a niche activity and would gain little by becoming 'Corporate' IMO.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 6:36pm
Never going to be like automobile manufacturing, changing models every ten years, old models usually gone in the next ten years, that's what griff the salesman wants, you can read into what happened with windsurfing, new model, new model, shame the owners into a new board every couple of years,what board do you have, WHAT, that's so last year.

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Robert


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 7:40pm
If quality of racing is what is important to you, then there are a few classes where the depth of competition is probably as good as it has ever been, this is aided and abetted by the aging demographic.

There are also a number of clubs where racing is in a good place, but not as many as in the 70ís.

The problem with bringing new classes into the market is that you are consigned to handicap racing until there is a critical mass, which might never arrive, and residuals donít work until this point has been reached.

The only way to overcome this is to come up with a boat that is so much fun that you can accept racing in a handicap fleet.   

If you are trying to draw dinghy racers from established one design fleets it has to be a very good offer.

Details such as daggerboard vs. centreboard are trivial compared with the big picture.

Kieth Callaghan has to be commended in pulling this off with the Hadron H2




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Happily living in the past


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

The problem with bringing new classes into the market is that you are consigned to handicap racing until there is a critical mass, which might never arrive, and residuals donít work until this point has been reached.
The only way to overcome this is to come up with a boat that is so much fun that you can accept racing in a handicap fleet.

Iíve often thought that a kickstarter campaign would be useful. Take deposits for a new class but promise to only build if you get, say, 25 deposits. And return the deposit if you donít get 25 takers. Helps the buyer know they will have critical mass racing and helps fund the tooling for the builder.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 11:34pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Never going to be like automobile manufacturing, changing models every ten years, old models usually gone in the next ten years, that's what griff the salesman wants, you can read into what happened with windsurfing, new model, new model, shame the owners into a new board every couple of years,what board do you have, WHAT, that's so last year.

I don't think it was quite that simple but there's a lot of truth in that, thankfully dinghy sailing has manage to avoid that mindset, mostly anyway.




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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 11:37pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Iíve often thought that a kickstarter campaign would be useful. Take deposits for a new class but promise to only build if you get, say, 25 deposits. And return the deposit if you donít get 25 takers. Helps the buyer know they will have critical mass racing and helps fund the tooling for the builder.

I believe that's the basic premise of Kickstarter. But a national fleet of 25 would be a bit marginal maybe even in the beginning?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Nov 21 at 10:33am
Not sure what the minimum number of boats for a fleet is - I purchased the 15th H2 to be built and we seemed to get to around 25 or 30 boats shortly thereafter. That was enough for 18 boats at the nationals and some good opens as well as plenty of chatter on the association FB page between owners. Then Brexit and COVID came along and things really slowed down. I recall chatting to a friend who expressed that it was a make or break time for the class so I was relieved when lockdown ended and the orders started to flow in. Last weekend the 50th boat was launched and the order book is full for the year ahead. Interestingly the boats sell within a few days when they come up and the cost of depreciation is around £500 per year which is pretty good. As one of the last "new" classes I hope this info helps in the discussion?

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 25 Nov 21 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by H2

the cost of depreciation is around £500 per year which is pretty good.

that's exceptional - I always banked on £1000 per annum, it could easily be worse.


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Nov 21 at 12:37pm
Many established classes started out with a lot less than 25 boats and usually can trace their heritage back to one or two clubs, so I think there is a difference between local viability and national critical mass.  Given how varied conditions are across the nation, it could well be that a modular design, allowing open rig/sail/foil choices would be better than trying to start a new OD class?

For example inland owners may prefer deeper foils and higher rigs, whereas sea sailors may prefer centre-boards and lower aspect sails.

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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 25 Nov 21 at 5:11pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by H2

the cost of depreciation is around £500 per year which is pretty good.

that's exceptional - I always banked on £1000 per annum, it could easily be worse.

Evening TT . Well you have always been the forums expert on depreciation , with the amount of class jumping you did LOL

Anyway glad youíre back again however fleetingly. Still enjoying the Spanish sunshine? 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Grumpycat


Originally posted by turnturtle


Originally posted by H2

the cost of depreciation is around £500 per year which is pretty good.

that's exceptional - I always banked on £1000 per annum, it could easily be worse.

Evening TT . Well you have always been the forums expert on depreciation


Not the only thing he was expert at...



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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Nov 21 at 3:45pm
Itís still  a better look than seeing him in a wetsuit. Wink

Tbh he looks more like Merlinboy in that picture .


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Nov 21 at 10:58pm
thats because that is Russ. Jimbo never wore the bottle


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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 27 Nov 21 at 11:29pm
I thought so . But it would be unlike me to call grf wrong lol .
Iíve had loads of disagreements with James over the years  but have never taken it personally.
I cannot say the about Russ. He took against me early on with the Dzero when I said it looked like a wet boat. I went to the dinghy show the year after the Dzero launched, and he wouldnít speak to me , he just glared at me and my wife when we went to the Dzero stand. He even attacked my wife on fb on a unrelated post about her  not liking water in the face when sailing . He was a silly little boy in my view . 
On the other hand , he is not sailing now and I am sailing a Dzero and loving it . SmileSmile



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Nov 21 at 9:34am
Shows how peeved I was then could have sworn that was jimbo in the bottle that night, but then I was busy dodging the dwarf t**sersÖ

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Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 07 Dec 21 at 3:13pm
Hi Duncan, 

Yes sunny Spain is great... certainly a lot brighter than the UK and less of the culture wars and grumpy attitudes. Although moving to the former Euro hub of the America's Cup and there's still only class racing in bloody Lasers; not that I'm bothered really as life with kids doesn't tend to agree with fixed time sports commitments - well not mine anyway LOL

I've hired a few beach cats when the opportunity takes; also keep threatening to get a foil board to go with my wing sail. (I use it with a SUP if it's a bit breezy for paddling)  Bikes seem to soak up the time and pennies these days.... probably get a boat at some point again though, but we've got real mountains less than an hour's ride from the city... and I've no desire to take riding too seriously.



Glad to see iGRF still confusing me with Russ ;-) 


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 08 Dec 21 at 7:44pm
Looks great mate Smile


Posted By: Woodman
Date Posted: 08 Dec 21 at 7:49pm
I wouldnít write off an H2 for a smaller person, it arguably could do with more power for the heavier sailor.

Not sure why you think nothing is happening, a new lightweight singlehander was announced today. The Aero 6 !


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Dec 21 at 10:37pm
Originally posted by Woodman

I wouldnít write off an H2 for a smaller person, it arguably could do with more power for the heavier sailor.

Not sure why you think nothing is happening, a new lightweight singlehander was announced today. The Aero 6 !

That seems a bit daft, diluting the fleets even further and narrowing the optimum weight range...


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 8:26am
I noticed that a couple of ladies borrowed demo 6m rigs for our Aero open and said that the rigs were great

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Woodman


Not sure why you think nothing is happening, a new lightweight singlehander was announced today. The Aero 6 !

Really, well then they may as well crack on with an 8 as well to complete the set. 

more small fleets everywhere. 


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Old Timer

Originally posted by Woodman


Not sure why you think nothing is happening, a new lightweight singlehander was announced today. The Aero 6 !

Really, well then they may as well crack on with an 8 as well to complete the set. 

more small fleets everywhere. 

Whilst a fan of one design fleet racing, I can see the benefits of having a more perfect rig that works for your weight and venue ... particularly if you are racing in handicap fleets.

Presumably the owners will gravitate toward the rigs that work for them, and maybe a rig that works for one design fleet racing at a particular venue will be promoted.

I can see problems for ROs identifying the titchy Aero 5, 6, 7 and 9 numbers to attribute the correct PY numbers, and there is scope for banditry at one off events, but if RS think that this will result in more participation, then it is probably a good thing.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Woodman

I wouldnít write off an H2 for a smaller person, it arguably could do with more power for the heavier sailor.
Not sure why you think nothing is happening, a new lightweight singlehander was announced today. The Aero 6 !


Well it's only taken 40 years for dinghy development to catch up with what's been going on in other windsport for decades, as for that being a groundbreaking bit of news, well pardon me yawning. I'm about to give in and join the ranks of a death class of the living dead on wires. And I'll probably have to buy one of https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253179362141?epid=10002503697&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item3af2aa7b5d:g:Z-YAAOSw5PNhqCgO&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsSg3Ye8yTWgOW7pmE1t838dihH%252F259zshn%252FhOrN9RgQz6OIR2mXPrtSi43ib9TY3s7XAAYcYnLsqlLBokyY8Bv85SO7SLL4YiaIm7YZ%252BmhRfH7ItmCflB69IjA%252B1MGz%252BW4x%252BbOlk4%252BqdeI%252Bhxye9ZQAc63kZsOP5pCNXMl3HcPwehJC6%252FofblpTtT8iwvf1GCUQgpfvQM214BWGjTMlbnW3DIdPeMVxrGJQXUW7%252Bbd%252B%252F1Nt%252Blo3onR2Nb9JxsVCECZv6kPISB4rOhD3YqFWd3KQ%252FLbUIDpuBz28ci7UDO8SOGdGM47FQzsKPGuAwjphCY%252FVVVoy8XUe%252FCZMzi9i4N21Si8wAABySXTOrhTOgwDBFjb2dIR2u8XuF3%252Fud9XcF%252F3UfcwNXbmroxaJz1NgCVPFL%252FhUhZzjX66eaEbUbYQuZ0LTmP3Cf5ZnP1rfb%252FRMM%252FgLE1MQGLB0GUVarD0Zb8rfV5tuDaubiVdJpxQVMeY2H8gT8VidrZualeWxU3glwbRKVU0iDC9KzSMKmCx%252B%252FY4EIygBPVKrn0qmFmf6EI%252BYooR3CpAGRTQ32%252BFsfnNPvL5peKBrH4X6m%252BBP6OKpTym1w%252BSUB5ntcxOOFuZsfiN0QiFFZCyWCZlQX68Q0Mp9zrFOegwNqteeONdxsRpLrRf0tnKiE8Xu37Xu9kD15yQFbBFfFah%252FfcO9Qq3zDJgpGI5HITF52fZIdasUngiP995tk9Hih51PAwTMqllYZSP%252Bwww%252FDWnv3lfj5KgB1QgqqP8OAqFc6LMkiZfJgF0%252BxylSpM%252BFUFs140RAGRimLo44q%252B5%252FAAJG5RUpd6xrlzehMyD1yUXQAq0ln7oy6ToLSvKDA%253D%253D%7Cclp%3A2334524%7Ctkp%3ABFBMtpKU7bNf" rel="nofollow - These to get it to the water..

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

I can see problems for ROs identifying the titchy Aero 5, 6, 7 and 9 numbers to attribute the correct PY numbers, and there is scope for banditry at one off events, but if RS think that this will result in more participation, then it is probably a good thing.

The different size rigs have different coloured flashes on the sails aft of the window which probably helps but I'll bet many ROs haven't realised...


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 1:23pm
Whilst in no way an expert I do think the Aero 6 makes sense and my bet would be that in a few years the 5/6/7 will be the dominant rigs. I know Peter will come along and tell me I am wrong, the people I sail against have concluded that the 9 sail has a very narrow wind range where it is better than the 7 rig because once the boat is planning it is a vmax and upwind the 9 is sometimes slower once the breeze gets going. I have not looked at the racing returns but would bet that the majority are 5 and 7 rigs being raced today with declining numbers racing the 9. The six therefore makes sense!

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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 1:59pm
Makes sense on the 9; the Rooster oversize Laser rig never really took off.  I know a six foot plus ex Musto Skiff sailor who had the Rooster and he never liked it.
 


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 2:11pm
I agree with you but I think the rigs will be 5/6/ and a slightly larger 7 maybe called a 8 LOL


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by davidyacht

I can see problems for ROs identifying the titchy Aero 5, 6, 7 and 9 numbers to attribute the correct PY numbers, and there is scope for banditry at one off events, but if RS think that this will result in more participation, then it is probably a good thing.

The different size rigs have different coloured flashes on the sails aft of the window which probably helps but I'll bet many ROs haven't realised...

Nor did I ... its hard enough discerning Laser full, radial and 4.7 especially with knock off sails


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: epicfail
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 5:26pm
Just sail a Europe with a mast suitable for the weight of the helm, anyone from under 50 to 80 kg's can be competitive in the same class. 


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 6:56pm
OMG. RS are now resurrecting the 100. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by Do Different

Makes sense on the 9; the Rooster oversize Laser rig never really took off.  I know a six foot plus ex Musto Skiff sailor who had the Rooster and he never liked it.
 

TBF Laser mast technology has barely caught up with the standard sail never mind something significantly bigger so it's no surprise it hasn't caught on. It probably should have has a taped carbon mast but even so I'd think anybody big enough to benefit would find a Laser a very cramped boat to sail.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 7:29pm
Exactly. Thumbs UpWink


Posted By: Woodman
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 8:07pm
What happened to one boat and one sail for all conditions? 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 8:53pm
Originally posted by Woodman

What happened to one boat and one sail for all conditions?†
It's over. 50-60kgs use a 5mtr, 60-70 use the 6, 70-80 the 7, 80-90 wait a bit, 90-100 use the 9, 100kg+ go directly to FatCamp or choose some other pursuit.. golf, fishing, darts with all the other Fat people.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 8:53pm
Woodman, Itís never been a fact . Most classes have always allowed smaller or flatter sails . And Laser totally blow the doors off when they launched the radial lol. 
To go back to my original point , two of my friends had solutions , both had a flat and a full sail and the class also allows a official smaller sail. Or to use a much older class as a example, the British moth. When I had mine I had a flat sail, a full sail and a slightly smaller flat sail all class legal. The class also has a official small sail that is a lot smaller .
The only boats Iíve ever own that I only had  one sail with were the Lightning 368 and the Dzero . The thing they have in common is they both have soft unstayed masts . 


Posted By: Woodman
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 9:20pm
But a boat with 4 rigs already and maybe another one, each with a different section is getting a bit bonkers - a very basic rig which has a limited wind range? Most boats have only really have one sized sail even if they can have different cuts - moth, ok, lightning, supernova, solo, dzero, blaze, streaker, phantom etc Some  I agree have added a small sail but all of them are only really focused on the one Ďsizedí sail which caters for most in most conditions. Sort of makes the Aero itís own handicap class fleet - bit of a nightmare as an RO finishing a lot even with flashes on the sail.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 10:15pm
Woodman , The point is RS have another rig to sell . I always felt the the rig sizes were a little out , 5/6 and 8 would have made more sense to me. But what do I know ? Lol .
The bottom line is some rigs will prosper and some will die .
Re identification, I am pushing 60 , sail at a tiny club and am short sighted and I have never had a problem telling a 4.7/radial /standard laser apart and itís just as easy with the aero if you can be bothered to know the colours . 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Dec 21 at 10:28pm
Streaker has the Wave small sail for lighter sailors, I'm not sure if it has a separate handicap, Blaze has Fire and Halo sails as well as the standard sail though they haven't really taken off. Like the Aero and Laser both Fire and Halo are considered different classes from the Blaze standard sail.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 8:15am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by davidyacht

I can see problems for ROs identifying the titchy Aero 5, 6, 7 and 9 numbers to attribute the correct PY numbers, and there is scope for banditry at one off events, but if RS think that this will result in more participation, then it is probably a good thing.

The different size rigs have different coloured flashes on the sails aft of the window which probably helps but I'll bet many ROs haven't realised...

Looking at the Aero page on the RS website, have the coloured flashes always been on the sails?  I can see the yellow flashes on some Aero 7 sails but not all, and no flashes on the Aero 9?


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Woodman
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 10:21am
I believe flashes have been on the sails for some time. Question is why it needs so many. Other classes are all predominantly used with one size of sail with allowance for a variety of cuts if its open sailmaking. With the aero it seems to need at least two sails to work in a Ďnormalí wind range for an Ďaverageí sailor. 


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 10:29am
I donít think there were on sails at the boats launch but the change happened with in the first few months . Certainly when my friend bought one about a year after the boat launch, his sails ( 7 and 9 ) had them on . For any that doesnít already know, 5 is blue, 7 is yellow and 9 is pink .
Tbh I find the same people that canít tell the difference between a Laser 4.7 and a Laser standard or the difference between the Aero 5/7/9 are the same people that CAN spot every different version of a N12 or Merlin rocket made since 1950 at a mile away . LOL


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 11:01am
Originally posted by Grumpycat

I donít think there were on sails at the boats launch but the change happened with in the first few months . Certainly when my friend bought one about a year after the boat launch, his sails ( 7 and 9 ) had them on . For any that doesnít already know, 5 is blue, 7 is yellow and 9 is pink .
Tbh I find the same people that canít tell the difference between a Laser 4.7 and a Laser standard or the difference between the Aero 5/7/9 are the same people that CAN spot every different version of a N12 or Merlin rocket made since 1950 at a mile away . LOL

Indeed this is the case LOL




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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 11:01am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by davidyacht

I can see problems for ROs identifying the titchy Aero 5, 6, 7 and 9 numbers to attribute the correct PY numbers, and there is scope for banditry at one off events, but if RS think that this will result in more participation, then it is probably a good thing.

The different size rigs have different coloured flashes on the sails aft of the window which probably helps but I'll bet many ROs haven't realised...

Looking at the Aero page on the RS website, have the coloured flashes always been on the sails?  I can see the yellow flashes on some Aero 7 sails but not all, and no flashes on the Aero 9?

The colour flashes on the three mainsails (light blue, yellow & pink) were introduced after the first season, in late 2015, to provide an easy quick glance solution to rig identification. New sails come with them painted on the rear of the window. For earlier used sails there was a (free) sticker option that could be easily added (distributed at events and easily posted).
That RS Aero 9 photo is from our first http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbDJpPDhHu0" rel="nofollow - RS Aerocup at Barcelona in Oct 2015 , pre colour flashers.


If a club RO gets RS Aeros joining his mixed fleet race for the first time he may not immediately understand that, if he is not familiar. He will then need to rely on the wording on the sail insignia which says exactly what it is e.g. 'RS Aero 7', which is simpler and clearer than most classes with logos or abbreviations. 
When we have a a large event with three fleets, like the UK Nationals with 138 boats this year, the 'quick glance' flashes are hugely valuable for both racers and the race team. 
At an RS Aero event, whether Class or PY racing, a RO only needs to note the sail number and not the rig size, as there will not be duplicated numbers.


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Woodman

I believe flashes have been on the sails for some time. Question is why it needs so many. Other classes are all predominantly used with one size of sail with allowance for a variety of cuts if its open sailmaking. With the aero it seems to need at least two sails to work in a Ďnormalí wind range for an Ďaverageí sailor. 

You could see what they were trying to do by copying the Laser model so one boat covers kids , small adults and normal sized people. 
But they just got the sail sizes wrong. The 5 is spot on , much better than a 4.7 so thatís the kids section of the market covered . The 7 is just too big for small adults and only just big enough for  normally sized people on inland water. And the 9 sail is just to big for the hull length of the boat.
So we now have the 6 which does fill the small adult spot. All they have to do now is sort out a proper full sized sail for normal sized adults , next stop in my view will be a 8.

As was said early , I am sure Pete Barton will be along at some time saying we are both talking Ď tosh Ď .Smile 
See I was nearly  right about that at least LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Dec 21 at 10:22pm
I agree with Pete Barton in so much as all the RO needs to record is sail numbers but that presupposes that sailors sign in for every race and, honestly, declare their sail size. At my home club we have Aero sailors who use two different sizes during a series and we only have to sign on once so it relies on the OOD to spot anomalies. On the single occasion I used my Fire sail in preference to the standard Blaze sail I was classified as a Blaze, that was despite signing on as a Fire as my sail number came up as a Blaze on the system and nobody noticed. On that occasion it was pretty irrelevant as I was sailing a smaller rig (and I am usually bottom half of the fleet) but ad I been sailing a Halo that day I would have had an unfair advantage. That said they usually notice if one of the more accomplished Laser sailors uses a different rig...

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 11 Dec 21 at 7:25am
Originally posted by Peter Barton

At an RS Aero event, whether Class or PY racing, a RO only needs to note the sail number and not the rig size, as there will not be duplicated numbers.

Second hand sails?

"Can I borrow your spare 5 rig, its a bit windy for me/9 rig its a bit light for me and I had a big breakfast?"

The former is more likely, and it *will* happen! In defiance of SIs or not.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Dec 21 at 3:47pm
At 'proper' class events they are usually pretty strict about duplicate numbers, maybe club racing it would happen but I doubt it would happen at my home club.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 14 Dec 21 at 5:04pm
Originally posted by Paramedic

Originally posted by Peter Barton

At an RS Aero event, whether Class or PY racing, a RO only needs to note the sail number and not the rig size, as there will not be duplicated numbers.

Second hand sails?

"Can I borrow your spare 5 rig, its a bit windy for me/9 rig its a bit light for me and I had a big breakfast?"

The former is more likely, and it *will* happen! In defiance of SIs or not.

The RRS and Class Rules are clear on the need for a unique sail number and in the RS Aero's case, to match the hull. Second hand sails are the same issue for any class, subject to their Class Rules. Sailors need to conform to the rules. If they break them and race management don't enforce the rules then, in this scenario, they may expect identification confusion. 

At any lower key racing it becomes less likely that race management will enforce sail number rules at the risk of putting off participation. That is why SIs often have a leniency of allowing boats to use different sail numbers after requesting and receiving RO's permission. The RO could then at least insist on non duplication or accept duplication in different rig sizes, if they choose.

RS Aero numbers are formed from digital 8s so it is very easy, when permitted, to customise a number temporarily by adding or removing a segment to form a new number that is not already being used at the event/race. In my experience in RS Aeros this is very rare in practice however, as most RS Aero owners already own the rigs they are likely to want to use.

For major RS Aero championships I encourage the use of a NoR/SI where borrowed equipment (only) is allowed a sail number that does not match the hull. That helps the ease of lending and borrowing equipment to promote participation,  avoiding the effort and non environmental wastage of the need to fully change a number for an event and change it back afterwards. 


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 16 Dec 21 at 4:54pm
.. while black spinnaker repair tape continues to be available on the market, this is a non topic IMO.

I struggle to believe a regatta held anywhere in the dinghy sailing world would struggle to come up with the materials or common-sense to enable one competitor to create a unique number of their sail to fit within SI's when needed.  

I've seen boats practically rebuilt overnight at championships for goodness sakes, changing a number on a sail is pretty small beer.


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 18 Dec 21 at 2:56pm
We've turned up at a class event with our correct boat and sail number only to find that someone else had the same sail number and had registered already. The organisers wanted us to change our number but I held my ground and refused since we conformed to the rules. Eventually the other boat sailed with a taped X after the number. 
I believe they had borrowed the boat from a previous owner for the nationals and supplied their own sails.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Dec 21 at 4:28pm
Answering iGRFs original post probably yes, Melges 15 boat of the year and an inflatable cat dinghy of the year- a revamped very old design in the cats case. 

https://www.sailingworld.com/sailboats/2022-boat-of-the-year-winner/" rel="nofollow - https://www.sailingworld.com/sailboats/2022-boat-of-the-year-winner/


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com



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