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Performance step changes.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13864
Printed Date: 01 Jul 22 at 10:41am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Performance step changes.
Posted By: 423zero
Subject: Performance step changes.
Date Posted: 23 Oct 21 at 5:09pm
Was the 'Kicker' first performance adaption ?



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Robert



Replies:
Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 23 Oct 21 at 5:50pm
Centreboards must have been earlier and certainly a step change 

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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Oct 21 at 6:02pm
Centre boards would have made boats lighter, that would help with speed, are they better than a keel though for pointing and reaching?

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Oct 21 at 6:47pm
Can't help thinking there have been step changes ever since the first person figured out that if you hollowed out a log to get across the river it was much better than just sitting astride one with your legs dangling for the alligators...


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Oct 21 at 9:02pm
Even if looking at the last 100 years or more, kicking straps are a good thing, but not the first, or the best, but certainly part of a great package. Hollow masts, spreaders, lowers, sail cloth advances, Cumninghame, loose footed sails, bendy masts (we shall pass by bendy booms), battens, roaches with control, just to scratch the surface.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 23 Oct 21 at 10:16pm
Glued plywood followed by composites, made for notable reductions in weight and increases in stiffness 

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 8:52am
Giving a score out of one hundred, Sail technology got to be in the nineties.
Hull materials probably eighties.
Foiling latest.

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Robert


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 9:56am
^ The interesting aspect of this is the symbiotic relationship of the developments, if hulls had not moved on from clinker or carvel construction than planing as we know it today would not have been possible, let alone foiling.

The step change in hull technology from the 40's through 50's then 60's was massive.  The step from cotton to terylene was also massive. But I think that the returns have been diminishing ever since then.  And I am not sure that many changes since the 70's have massively improved the enjoyment or accessibility of the sport.

You could argue that changes in clothing technology has transformed the sport since the 60's, I am not sure that the two hour race I did yesterday in chill winds would have been a lot of fun in Dunlop Magisters, jeans and a wooly jumper (nor the heavy jacket that I wore as a 14 year old in a Laser).  The development of high performance sailing clothing has enabled us stay on the water in comfort for many hours, facilitating the present open meeting and championship formats.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 10:56am
"And I am not sure that many changes since the 70's have massively improved the enjoyment or accessibility of the sport."
Certainly second that observation. 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 11:04am
Clothing, good point, I have sailed in minus 6 only ears and hands cold.
Simple performance boats similar to 'Enterprise' seem to hold their ground, next step could be a very light version with structural integrity, ie, Hull fittings don't fall out.

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Robert


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 12:02pm
The obvious big change that has improved enjoyment and accessibility is sprit kites.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 1:10pm
Trying to find the link to the story about first kicker, I know it was used in a race in New Zealand, skipper kept it in his pocket to prevent anyone from finding out how they were winning.

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Robert


Posted By: Old bloke
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 2:53pm
I suspect that the kicker was invented many times, but the story I have heard was that it was an international 14 sailor and that ,as you say, he kept it hidden until he was out on the water


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 5:20pm
Found it, Captain Boyd was inventor.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gXQQAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=race+in+which+kicking+strap+was+first+used&source=bl&ots=k8W47jjGtQ&sig=ACfU3U22x3yz8zIhmHqsW5WitMVDJ9m9WQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwis8JjtxePzAhVED2MBHQk-BXEQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=race%20in%20which%20kicking%20strap%20was%20first%20used&f=false


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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 24 Oct 21 at 5:39pm
Page is in Eric Twiname 'Start to win'

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Robert


Posted By: sarg boland
Date Posted: 26 Oct 21 at 11:03am
Sailed on Strangford Loch in Northern Ireland  in an old traditional class - think they were called "Rivers".  No kicker so crew would sit on boom to keep it from lifting up and depowering main.  If wind got up crew were lifted  up feet off the deck, add another crew member - downwind  these  crews members needed  confidence that helm would not allow a crash gybe.  Lovely boats to sail.

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Fair winds


Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 27 Oct 21 at 2:28pm
Two big step changes that spring to mind are toe-straps, followed by the trapeze/sliding seat*.

* not sure when they became a thing but for convenience I'm lumping them in with trapezes - step change 1 is some of your weight over the side of the boat, step change 2 is all of your weight over the side



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RS600 1001


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 27 Oct 21 at 3:29pm
Oddly I think both trapeze and sliding seat may predate toe straps. Sliding sets date back to the end of the 19thC. What we would call trapezes were in use on Malaysian racing canoes about the same time. Its uncertain whether they inspired the european introduction, but they were reported in western yachting media, so its certainly possible.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Oct 21 at 9:54pm
Nope, the only serious performance step change was the articulated mast foot joint that gave rise to the biggest increase in independant performance sailing.

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Oct 21 at 6:10am
Windsurfers brilliant, enabling use of wind from anywhere and could be carried in a van or roof of a car, then carried by hand, much like sit on top kayaks, 'Topper' probably nearest dinghy to meet this convenience.

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Robert


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 28 Oct 21 at 7:20am
I'm going to go for glued construction.

It has given rise - directly or otherwise - to pretty much every racing class we have today except approximately 10, one or two of which pioneered the technique, later refined on all the others. I suppose we have WWII to thank for it because without that we'd probably never have developed the chemistry, at least not as quickly.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Oct 21 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Nope, the only serious performance step change was the articulated mast foot joint that gave rise to the biggest increase in independant performance sailing.

Which in turn was enabled by the wet suit. Board sailing in 1930s dinghy sailing clothing would leave a lot to be desired!


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 21 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

Nope, the only serious performance step change was the articulated mast foot joint that gave rise to the biggest increase in independant performance sailing.

Which in turn was enabled by the wet suit. Board sailing in 1930s dinghy sailing clothing would leave a lot to be desired!


Hmmm https://youtu.be/O0H7KLDoIKM" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/O0H7KLDoIKM

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Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 30 Oct 21 at 6:03pm
Those bits the Moth class stuck on the bottom of there foils seam to have been a bit of a step change that has been brilliant to watch. So there is at least one good development since the 70s I think. Wink


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 31 Oct 21 at 8:25am
Originally posted by Sailerf

Those bits the Moth class stuck on the bottom of there foils seam to have been a bit of a step change that has been brilliant to watch. So there is at least one good development since the 70s I think. Wink

Not sure that £26k second hand for an 11ft boat is going to take dinghy sailing to the masses 


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: TT2
Date Posted: 31 Oct 21 at 11:12am

Rumour has it the Worlds winning moth sold for 48,000 euro after the regatta in Garda. 


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 31 Oct 21 at 2:39pm
And I thought sailing for the masses ended with the package holiday. 26k compared to motor sport looks like a drop in the ocean but you can have a lot of fun for nearly 20k less than quoted. and 120 boats at the world was not to bad.
 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/321743615993805/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ab5dca065-4cef-4963-bf58-321be11d2ff2



Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 31 Oct 21 at 4:45pm
Originally posted by Sailerf

And I thought sailing for the masses ended with the package holiday. 26k compared to motor sport looks like a drop in the ocean but you can have a lot of fun for nearly 20k less than quoted. and 120 boats at the world was not to bad.
 https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/321743615993805/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ab5dca065-4cef-4963-bf58-321be11d2ff2


I would not find it fun to be 5-10% of the pace of the winner. If it is just to blast about there are many foiling options from windsurfing to kiting to go at substantially cheaper.


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 8:25am
Firstly I thought this topic was about Performance step changes not cost or ability's . But if john80 can race Slingsby at only 5-10 percent performance deficit in an older foiling Moth you must be some sailor.Wink 


Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 9:15am
"I would not find it fun to be 5-10% off the pace of the winner."
I don't agree with that. No matter what your relative standard is in a fleet, if you are having close competition with other boats, that is fun. Maybe 90% of a fleet have no realistic chance of winning, but still take part, week in, week out. Why? Because they have fun doing their thing.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 12:59pm
Foiling and weight reduction, are these the final steps for dinghy sailing? Have we reached maturity?

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Robert


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 2:26pm
423@ 12.59.
I would say no. 
Depends on your definition of performance .
Weight reduction maybe the holy grail for outright speed potential, as is foiling.
However they both come at a cost in terms of sail-ability and expense.
To me an ever narrowing alleyway. 
 


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Foiling and weight reduction, are these the final steps for dinghy sailing? Have we reached maturity?


No, not by a long chalk, but I think we need to quantify what we mean by performance, performance in terms of speed? Or performance in close quarter tactical dinghy racing in which the helm can just focus on the racing, not wrestling with an uncontrollable old hulk which falls over, leaks, bits break off, has a restriction on controls, requires a crane to launch and recover and which user manual was written in 1953?

To me the best things recently have been the D0 and Aero, but such a pity there were near misses of that ultimate goal. Had the Aero just been 20 cm longer, with a retracting cb and the D0 rig. Had the D Zero had some grip upfront, a retracting cb, a bit more nose (or tail)rocker and some better self baling solution.

I've sailed lots of stuff now in my quest for perfection and still it eludes me, but maybe that's part of the attraction?



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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 4:08pm
Not light and not foiling or suitable for a shingle beach but..........

Doesn't fall over, not heard they break and not designed in 1953.

K1 ??? I know a couple of blokes who do sail respectively single sail single wire and three sail single wire dinghies; they have K1 s for winter racing and fun of going around the bay and they love em. 

The bulb keel slippery single hander could be seen as a step change for some.

Just saying Beer

edited for weird formatting.........Confused


Posted By: seastate
Date Posted: 02 Nov 21 at 5:19pm
I’ve seen K1s capsized on at least 2 occasions and required some additional weight on the ‘keel’ to right it


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 03 Nov 21 at 7:36pm
I have owned my K1 for 10 years now, although unused a couple of years.
It has only fallen over once, at a Boxing Day regatta, where I was the only non Laser silly enough to go out.  A big gust came along when I wasn’t paying attention before the start, and the boat capsized.  While I was thinking “what do I do now” the boat popped up again.
I have also sailed the Laser Stratos Keel quite a lot and I found the K1 came up more easily.  I think because the boat is narrower, and the keel is longer, so has more leverage despite a distinctly lighter keel.
I have seen a photo of a capsized K1, all I can say is that it is reluctant to stay that way.


Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 03 Nov 21 at 11:20pm
I was mark laying for a Waszp event the other week. Volunteered as I thought there would be fast and photogenic sailing. Hmm, not really; when it's windy enough to foil, they just fly along splash free and so smoothly they don't look especially quick. When it isn't, they are just very wobbly and quite slow displacement boats.

The thing that did impress me was the work rate of the better sailors; "bouncing" the boat on its foils to get the hull out the water, then sheeting and steering.like mad to keep it foiling.

But I'd miss the feel of the boat bouncing and crashing over the water.

Not sure foiling is "the future of sailing" .. but possibly does count as a significant step change in a particular direction. And note that the fastest windsurfers are, ultimately, still the non foilers .. the foils have more drag than a board that's planing.

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Javelin 558
Contender 2574
V3000 3604 ...lapse of reason


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Nov 21 at 12:32am
Originally posted by NickA

I was mark laying for a Waszp event the other week. Volunteered as I thought there would be fast and photogenic sailing. Hmm, not really; when it's windy enough to foil, they just fly along splash free and so smoothly they don't look especially quick. When it isn't, they are just very wobbly and quite slow displacement boats.

The thing that did impress me was the work rate of the better sailors; "bouncing" the boat on its foils to get the hull out the water, then sheeting and steering.like mad to keep it foiling.

But I'd miss the feel of the boat bouncing and crashing over the water.

Not sure foiling is "the future of sailing" .. but possibly does count as a significant step change in a particular direction. And note that the fastest windsurfers are, ultimately, still the non foilers .. the foils have more drag than a board that's planing.

Not tried foiling, too old and lacking agility for a Moth but definitely considering a windsurfing foil setup. What my reading has suggested is that foils have an upper speed limit beyond which they won't go so you need different foils for different conditions which rapidly gets super expensive. If I do give it a go they'll be large area for low speed lift (and slower crashes LOL).



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Nov 21 at 9:43am
Well talking of 'foiling' the latest step change is the advent of 'Wing foiling' which has been gathering momentum this last couple of years. This involves holding an inflatable 'wing' which can either be used to propel a SUP or something smaller with a foil beneath it.

So what I hear y'all groaning, well 'what' is that some inland waters have opened up to the use of wing foils with the resulting influx. Kites have never been permitted inland, but Wing foils have no lines to tangle around overhead power lines or around the propellors of rescue boats and travel at the moment at slower speeds.

There are naturally growing wing foil race championships which I have to say visually look far more comfortable andf stylish than the kite foil racing arena that has foolishly adopted none water relaunchable foil kites and has a technique requirement off the scale compared even to windsurfing and windsurf foiling.

Wing foiling is also way cheaper and more accessible than wind or kite foiling, so expect to see more of it and if I were an inland club looking for more young members doing something visually different and potentially exciting, I'd get ready to embrace the activity which in skilled hands I've even seen carried out in marinas amongst the moorings as it's suitable for gusty shifty wind because of the high amount of created wind used in the application once pumped up onto the foils.


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Posted By: NickA
Date Posted: 07 Nov 21 at 9:49am
My (inland) club allows wing foilers. We have a few.

Looks deadly dull compared to wind surfing. Foils at a crazy low speed, but not quick. Probably lots of fun in waves, but we don't have those.

Very portable, which is nice, but I'm not the slightest bit tempted.

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Javelin 558
Contender 2574
V3000 3604 ...lapse of reason


Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 5:21pm
Said it before, will again, the wing sails of the AC world will make their way down the pyramid and end up on dinghies in the near future, as boats increase in speed development from soft sails is inevitable, likely also joined with foils, flying systems (i.e. developments on the 'wand' ) and steering systems.

I'd like to see more effort go into environmentally conscious development given the cr@p we are all in if we don't change our ways ... metals masts can, I guess be recycled, but FRP/GRP isn't very friendly so maybe some kind of second wind for wood construction? but that needs last-for-a-thousand-years glues??


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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 6:16pm
I wonder what the relative lifetime environmental impact of wood and plastic boats is, given repainting, microplastic from sanding back paint, etc etc.

Wing sails were of course developed in small boats, notably the C Class catamarans, long before they were seen in the AC, but the spectacular inconvenience of off the water handling is a killer. A C class regatta demands covered storage for every boat, including enough space for rigs to be demounted and stored under cover out of the wind. Given a fleet of 30 or 40 boats that's a very sizable requirement in space and expense hiring marquees.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 21 at 8:56pm
One day, the sun will eventually expand to become a red giant and will swallow pretty much the entire solar system, so it'll all be pretty academic.

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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Nov 21 at 2:12pm
I would have thought, that at a dinghy size, a wing-sail could not be constructed so the solid pieces slotted together and a fabric or film covering was pulled over the top and tensioned, avoiding the need for a solid-construction wing to be stored flat somewhere which I accept would take up a ton of room and be awkward, to say the least, for a fleet of boats

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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one



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