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Argo vs Lazer 2000

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13819
Printed Date: 25 May 22 at 9:48pm
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Topic: Argo vs Lazer 2000
Posted By: Neil&theSea
Subject: Argo vs Lazer 2000
Date Posted: 13 Aug 21 at 6:21pm
My son (45kg) and I (85kg) are getting to grips with an old RS200 and making reasonable progress. However, Iím feeling that our learning is being slowed by the precision required and it would be helpful (or just relaxing) to have a more stable platform a couple of times a month. Son wants to helm on something more stable, but wonít sail if it doesnít have a spinnaker. Feva is too small, Iím six foot, trying to protect a slightly dodgy hip and am returning after about 15 years. Iíve sailed a Firefly, Hobbies, Lazers, a Feva & a 470. Iím toying with picking up either a Topaz Argo or a Lazer 2000. Any recommendations or thoughts? Yes we will end up racing the 200
Thanks



Replies:
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 14 Aug 21 at 10:08am
I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a coaching day, it's something the RS classes do very well.
2000s are more of a proper class than Argo, I think, there are probably more people racing them regularly. But I'm not sure a change of boat will help much unless it gives you boats of the same class to learn form?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Aug 21 at 7:28pm
If you do change, go to the 2000. Argo is a nice training boat, butbthat is all. But the 200 is a lovely little boat, and as Eric says, make use of the Class Association to shorten the learning curve.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: Neil&theSea
Date Posted: 15 Aug 21 at 7:24pm
Thanks both
Confirmed what I thought I was seeing
Was never going to get rid of the 200, when the kite and our weight are just right itís just great
Was kind of thinking of a back up boat
Am sorting out coaching now
Again thanks


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 16 Aug 21 at 10:40am
There is massive weight variation with the Laser 2k. The older ones are reputedly lighter by a very significant margin. The older ones are much sought after by the serious 2k racers I believe.

Since RS have taken the boat on I have no idea how they compare weight wise.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 16 Aug 21 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad


There is massive weight variation with the Laser 2k. The older ones are reputedly lighter by a very significant margin. The older ones are much sought after by the serious 2k racers I believe.Since RS have taken the boat on I have no idea how they compare weight wise.


Only 3 old boats in the top ten this year.


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 16 Aug 21 at 12:53pm
Who knows how much difference a lightweight boat makes? It clearly makes some difference. If I intended to race a class and lightweight ones were available, I'd be a bit daft not to try and find one.

Here's an old thread with more opinion:
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9020" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9020

Several years ago 2k weighing at the club took place. I was there and witnessed a horrendous (by boat building standards) weight difference between several 2k's. It's no myth.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Aug 21 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by eric_c

I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a coaching day, it's something the RS classes do very well.
2000s are more of a proper class than Argo, I think, there are probably more people racing them regularly. But I'm not sure a change of boat will help much unless it gives you boats of the same class to learn form?

Ha, I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a council landfill. Bloody ridiculous boat.

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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 17 Aug 21 at 12:17pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by eric_c

I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a coaching day, it's something the RS classes do very well.
2000s are more of a proper class than Argo, I think, there are probably more people racing them regularly. But I'm not sure a change of boat will help much unless it gives you boats of the same class to learn form?

Ha, I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a council landfill. Bloody ridiculous boat.


In my view, it's not a particularly great boat, however it provides good sport for those who race them against other RS200s and is a reasonable entry into the world of asy spinnakers.

As a class it has a considerable pool of talent, including some good people who are willing and able to share their knowledge. It's hard to find a better class in the >1000 PY asy category.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Aug 21 at 1:28pm
Originally posted by eric_c


Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by eric_c

I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a coaching day, it's something the RS classes do very well.
2000s are more of a proper class than Argo, I think, there are probably more people racing them regularly. But I'm not sure a change of boat will help much unless it gives you boats of the same class to learn form?

Ha, I'd suggest taking the RS200 to a council landfill. Bloody ridiculous boat.
In my view, it's not a particularly great boat, however it provides good sport for those who race them against other RS200s and is a reasonable entry into the world of asy spinnakers.
As a class it has a considerable pool of talent, including some good people who are willing and able to share their knowledge. It's hard to find a better class in the >1000 PY asy category.


Well my experience is exactly the opposite, the last couple I knew bought one brand new.. they haven't sailed since, who the heck recommended it I've no idea, but having good people making it look benevolent in a world in which we need every new participant, is entirely counter productive, should take them all and lock them up as well..


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Posted By: Neil&theSea
Date Posted: 17 Aug 21 at 7:39pm
Thanks
That really helps
Itís not just me that thinks ď itís really, really, reallyĒ sensitive
N


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 3:44am
Like all boats a lot tends to be based upon your references, having sailed and got over the learning hump on some tricky boats Iíd say the 200 is actually really quite docile and itís sensitivity is really more down to longitudinal trim.  As someone whoís possibly a little heavier than you thatís the problem Iíve found with mine is keeping weight forward especially if you are not hiking.

Itís summer, waters warm, stick with it and if things go wrong provided the crew doesnít worry itís not clear where the problem is.


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RS200 and returning to a Musto, ex 300


Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 9:42am
Originally posted by Neptune

Like all boats a lot tends to be based upon your references, having sailed and got over the learning hump on some tricky boats Iíd say the 200 is actually really quite docile and itís sensitivity is really more down to longitudinal trim.  As someone whoís possibly a little heavier than you thatís the problem Iíve found with mine is keeping weight forward especially if you are not hiking.

Itís summer, waters warm, stick with it and if things go wrong provided the crew doesnít worry itís not clear where the problem is.


Trim problems in a short boat with the heavier person at the back and the cockpit divided by a centre mainsheet.... Hardly specific to the 200 I think!


If anything, is the 200 too docile? A few rides in a 400 which gives more feedback might be good for learning? Or with the light crew, maybe consider one of the trap asy boats which are a little faster than the 200? Experiencing different boats is good, if you can do it without buying lots of boats better still!


Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 9:50am
Originally posted by eric_c

If anything, is the 200 too docile?

Yes, but when I last sailed one it was a directly after some N12 sailing....


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3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000


Posted By: Sussex Lad
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 10:32am
N12......all that work for so little forward progress.Wink

Thought the 200 was based on a 12. Designed by 12 sailor and previous 12 designer. They have much in common.

......anyway, it's a horses for courses thing.




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 12:37pm
According to the PY data the RS200 is the most popular two handed class in the country, so they must be doing something right.

It is a fairly lively boat, which AIUI is why it gained the skeg during development to make it a bit less twitchy, but its clearly not in the same league of difficulty as high performance boats.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Neil&theSea

Thanks
That really helps
Itís not just me that thinks ď itís really, really, reallyĒ sensitive
N


A product from another time, when folk were conned into believing it's because they were bad sailors that a particular craft didn't work as it should. Happily that time has now past, thanks in part to the advent of people discussing things like this on the internet and refusing to be 'shamed' into believing they were not 'good enough' unless they spent every hour of every day practising, because this or that outrageously difficult craft needed very skilled handling.

Fact is, sailing in the elements, learning the vaguaries of the wind, shifts, tides, currents, interboat tactics, is difficult and enjoyable enough (if you get it right) without some badly designed, in some cases over canvassed, un stable nightmare adding to the problem and removing the joy of sailing in strong wind.

One day I think I'm going to compile a list of boats to avoid and you can trust me when I say the 200 will be right up there, my real problem however is finding any not to put on the list, every single one of them has its problems and you do need to put some effort in, to master any boats foibles. But some are more worth the effort than others. I wouldn't waste another hour on an RS200 unless you're set on class racing and have a very good crew.


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 2:08pm
Are the 2000 and RS200 the same boat?
Surprised at the amount Enterprise race returns have dropped.

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Robert


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 3:05pm
very different. 2000 heavy solid underpowered good boat for novice and bandit in a blow.
RS200 Much lighter has massive following hence 120 boat nationals great team work boat.
unsuitable for kent dinosaurs


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 4:19pm
I note the people who consider the RS200 "really quite docile" are experienced sailors with N12, RS300 and Musrto Skiff in their recent history, all of which are generally accepted as 'difficult to sail"...



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 18 Aug 21 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Gordon 1430

very different. 2000 heavy solid underpowered good boat for novice and bandit in a blow.
RS200 Much lighter has massive following hence 120 boat nationals great team work boat.
unsuitable for kent dinosaurs

Au contraire Gordon, I'm quite OK with them, just don't recommend them to folk who ask.. And here's a little message from me to you whilst sailing one..



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