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RS Sailing announces new RS200 Builder

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13749
Printed Date: 18 Apr 21 at 6:46pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: RS Sailing announces new RS200 Builder
Posted By: JimC
Subject: RS Sailing announces new RS200 Builder
Date Posted: 22 Feb 21 at 3:57pm
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/235412/RS-Sailing-announces-partnership-with-Gingerboats" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/235412/RS-Sailing-announces-partnership-with-Gingerboats

RS Sailing has entered into a new partnership with British boat builder Gingerboats Racing Ltd. The collaboration will see Gingerboats Racing Ltd take on the manufacturing of the RS200, an iconic doublehander in the RS Sailing range and the UK dinghy racing scene.


Anyone know anything about this? Surprised me. I'd never heard of Gingerboats, but according to their web site https://www.gingerboats.co.uk/" rel="nofollow - https://www.gingerboats.co.uk/ (if I have the right one!) they do wood GPs and wooden decked Ovington Solo shells, so they don't seem like the most obvious of choices. I know RS tend to outsource their building, but they don't usually publicise their sub contractors, and the RS200 surely isn't the same situation as the RS300.




Replies:
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 22 Feb 21 at 4:36pm
Believe that they will be moulding the Ex Ovington/Boon Solo for Rooster.  

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 22 Feb 21 at 5:08pm
You are both correct:
- Jim for identifying the correct Gingerboats web site
- David for confirming the that they will be building the new Rooster Solo using the Boon moulds that Ovington bought when Boon pulled out of building boats.

I think it is a step up for Gingerboats, but Phil is a talented boat builder and has worked for Ovis and they are getting assistance from Kevin as part of the set up.

I also don't think the RS team are mugs at this game and will have considered their options carefully, before selecting Phil & Alex.


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 22 Feb 21 at 6:56pm
Sign of the times?


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 22 Feb 21 at 7:33pm
Pardon my ignorance, but who has been building them for the last few years ? 




Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 22 Feb 21 at 8:43pm
Boat yard at Beer have been making them for a while and I have one of the newer ones, other than a couple of design faults from RS the actual build quality of mine has been really good (other than them using a section of ply for a fixing which was a little too small for the actual fixing!!). 

Will be interesting to see what the new ones come out like as all 200's seem very very close in performance. I just hope this means the prices can be kept down as at the moment £13,500 for a new 200 is a joke


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 9:19am
HI Jaydub
I think RS do a great job but they have made the odd cock up with boat builders not in anyway saying Ginger will be another Brazil.

 


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 9:42am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Boat yard at Beer have been making them for a while and I have one of the newer ones, other than a couple of design faults from RS the actual build quality of mine has been really good (other than them using a section of ply for a fixing which were a little too small for the actual fixing!!). 

Will be interesting to see what the new ones come out like as all 200's seem very very close in performance. I just hope this means the prices can be kept down as at the moment £13,500 for a new 200 is a joke

I think this is just what new boats cost to make really - if you look across a range of classes I think this kind of cost is now pretty typical. Was chatting to a friend who builds boats for a living and he suggested that even at these prices there is not really huge money to be made and the he expects prices to have to keep rising.


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H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 4:13pm
Forty or so years ago Spud Rowsell said that a new Merlin cost the same as a Mini.  Current base price of a Mini is around £ 15k, so £ 13,500 doesn't seem far off the mark.  

I guess that Kevin wasn't seeing much of that £ 13,500 and I hope for Ginger Boats that they can weather any storms that RS may encounter.

As an observer of the marine industry, it tends to be the marketeers that survive the ups and downs, not the boatbuilders.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 5:10pm
There was a post on the Solo FB group last November that Boatyard @ Beer Ltd was going into liquidation, maybe that's why RS need a new builder for 200s?

Boatbuilding is a pretty hands on process and even plastic boats require a certain skill level. Modern FRP boats are a far cry from CSM 'bucket and chuck it' construction of old. The guys with the necessary skills, quite reasonably, want to earn a living wage


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 5:25pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

I just hope this means the prices can be kept down as at the moment £13,500 for a new 200 is a joke

A new National 12 is less and in my experience, more of an enjoyable sail. The boats are much more individual too.

Merlins north of £25k is is significant investment though.


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3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 5:57pm
When you compare the standard of fitting out (and therefore cost) of a dinghy today compared to the 70s, you can see where a not insignificant wodge of the money comes from.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 6:45pm
Something like a Bahia is half the price of a 200,cost must be production of Hull.

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by Rupert

When you compare the standard of fitting out (and therefore cost) of a dinghy today compared to the 70s, you can see where a not insignificant wodge of the money comes from.


Can you?

Shouldda gone to Specsavers.

I'm with ClubRacer thirteen and a half grand for that hunk of junk is outrageous.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 7:41pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

There was a post on the Solo FB group last November that Boatyard @ Beer Ltd was going into liquidation, maybe that's why RS need a new builder for 200s?

Boatbuilding is a pretty hands on process and even plastic boats require a certain skill level. Modern FRP boats are a far cry from CSM 'bucket and chuck it' construction of old. The guys with the necessary skills, quite reasonably, want to earn a living wage

Boatyard @Beer is definitely no more . But Kevin is still in the boat repair business, I saw a post on the Streaker fb page of his new workshop . 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 8:44pm
Well that explains why they needed a new builder then. I'm still puzzled about the partnership/collaboration part though, I don't recall RS making announcements like that about previous sub contractors.


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 23 Feb 21 at 9:51pm
I think a lot of the price has to do with RS mark ups than boat manufacturing costs. 

IIRC back in 2011 RS proposed changing from their mylar material stuff they used on the 400 sails to a laminate because the material was becoming harder to get hold of. By moving to a laminate it meant they could keep the prices down (pretty sure this were their words in a newsletter I received). The mylars were £650 and went to £600 once they changed over to the laminate. The current prices of the laminate is £949

Part of this may be due to brexit as I'm unsure what the costs were pre-brexit. But even then, more than a 50% price increase over 10 years is ridiculous. For comparison the last jib I bought in 2016 was £420 and they are now £600, near 50% increase in just 4 and a half years. Kite in 2011 £520, 2021 £669

Topper sails are also made by Hyde (I think? looking at their website.) and a 4.2m sail which is comparable size to a 400 Jib is £215 


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 9:32am
Originally posted by davidyacht

Forty or so years ago Spud Rowsell said that a new Merlin cost the same as a Mini.  Current base price of a Mini is around £ 15k, so £ 13,500 doesn't seem far off the mark.  

I guess that Kevin wasn't seeing much of that £ 13,500 and I hope for Ginger Boats that they can weather any storms that RS may encounter.

As an observer of the marine industry, it tends to be the marketeers that survive the ups and downs, not the boatbuilders.

Where can I get a brand new Merlin for £15k now?


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 11:52am
Fair point ... got a bit divergent when JT raised the bar!

However I think classes like RS200 and RS400 may be where the 12s and Merlin’s were in the 70’s and early 80’s.

The real issue for classes based on production runs is that as the numbers slow a lot of the fixed costs have to be amortised across fewer boats, which squeezes the builder if the marketeer is not prepared to give up any margin, particularly when the sales evaporate as a result of a pandemic 


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

There was a post on the Solo FB group last November that Boatyard @ Beer Ltd was going into liquidation, maybe that's why RS need a new builder for 200s?

Boatbuilding is a pretty hands on process and even plastic boats require a certain skill level. Modern FRP boats are a far cry from CSM 'bucket and chuck it' construction of old. The guys with the necessary skills, quite reasonably, want to earn a living wage

Boatyard @Beer is definitely no more . But Kevin is still in the boat repair business, I saw a post on the Streaker fb page of his new workshop . 

He is building the Streaker as well I believe, based on the Rooster moulds.


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 3:32pm
He did say he had built his last Solo in that post I referred to above but didn't mention any other classes. I knew he built Streakers, one of our club hotshots has one.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 7:39pm
A good move on his part as there only two authorised builders of complete streakers . A lot less competition than trying to build Solos . Big smile


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 10:11pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat

A good move on his part as there only two authorised builders of complete streakers . A lot less competition than trying to build Solos . Big smile

I hope that he doesn’t give up on the Solos, his offering is beautifully engineered and is a good shape.  Just came into the market late, by which time most sailors had established relationships with the other builders.  


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 24 Feb 21 at 10:26pm
If he's going it alone then a single class may be enough commitment to make alongside repair work. I'm guessing that his Streakers were more sought after than his Solos, they are probably a more niche class so better suited to a small builder.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 25 Feb 21 at 8:07am
Originally posted by JimC

Well that explains why they needed a new builder then. I'm still puzzled about the partnership/collaboration part though, I don't recall RS making announcements like that about previous sub contractors.
Yes, is this a “partnership” because Gingerboats actually have a commercial share in the RS200 now, or is this hyperbole to justify a change of builder?  Makes me wonder how well RS treated by@b because it is hard to see why someone would give up building one of the most popular boats whilst staying in the boat repair business. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Feb 21 at 10:27am
Originally posted by A2Z

Originally posted by JimC

Well that explains why they needed a new builder then. I'm still puzzled about the partnership/collaboration part though, I don't recall RS making announcements like that about previous sub contractors.
Yes, is this a “partnership” because Gingerboats actually have a commercial share in the RS200 now, or is this hyperbole to justify a change of builder?  Makes me wonder how well RS treated by@b because it is hard to see why someone would give up building one of the most popular boats whilst staying in the boat repair business. 

It's popularity may be the reason, the volume of boats may be too much for a one man operation?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: L192444
Date Posted: 25 Feb 21 at 5:35pm
I'm clearing out my office and just found a 1996 RS price list.



RS200 open £4450 - 

RS400 £6295 - 

RS600 £4950 - 

49er £9250 - 


Less than 10k for a 49er ...

-- EDIT: there are line breaks in this post but its all mashed together when viewed Cry



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 10:19am
Say 'Hand made' rather than cheap, all that glitters is not gold.

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 1:22pm
Is it the marketing budget, or is it the limited size of the market?

Let's say the H2 suddenly halved in price and they could ramp up the production, are there double the number of potential customers out there?

What's more, who is even trying to find out?

These Independant builders, should long ago have combined their resources, hired a marketing outfit to find out.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 4:37pm
Originally posted by L192444

I'm clearing out my office and just found a 1996 RS price list.



RS200 open £4450 - 

RS400 £6295 - 

RS600 £4950 - 

49er £9250 - 


Less than 10k for a 49er ...

-- EDIT: there are line breaks in this post but its all mashed together when viewed Cry





Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 4:39pm
fair to say, that 5k uplift on the value chain must represent a very different market prognosis than back in the heady days of cheap finance, a booming economy and sailing holidays in Italy!


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Is it the marketing budget, or is it the limited size of the market?

Let's say the H2 suddenly halved in price and they could ramp up the production, are there double the number of potential customers out there?

What's more, who is even trying to find out?

These Independant builders, should long ago have combined their resources, hired a marketing outfit to find out.

As you very well know, if you halve the price you don’t halve the profit, there will be no profit at all!


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 7:06pm
It’s strange , i had never heard of Gingerboats until this month and then I hear of them twice in the same month . Once with the rs2000 and the other with the announcement that they building a solo for rooster using the boon moulds which rooster have acquired from Ovington. 




Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 26 Feb 21 at 8:25pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Is it the marketing budget, or is it the limited size of the market?

Let's say the H2 suddenly halved in price and they could ramp up the production, are there double the number of potential customers out there?

What's more, who is even trying to find out?

These Independant builders, should long ago have combined their resources, hired a marketing outfit to find out.

Let marketing anywhere near independent boat builders and very rapidly the only boat builders in the country will be RS, Hartley, Topper and Ovington. 


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Tink
https://tinkboats.com

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 27 Feb 21 at 9:04am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Originally posted by L192444

I'm clearing out my office and just found a 1996 RS price list.



RS200 open £4450 - 

RS400 £6295 - 

RS600 £4950 - 

49er £9250 - 


Less than 10k for a 49er ...

-- EDIT: there are line breaks in this post but its all mashed together when viewed Cry





Interesting to see the price is along way ahead of inflation. 

Must be increased profits. 


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Feb 21 at 9:21am



Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 27 Feb 21 at 9:23am


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Feb 21 at 8:00pm
Originally posted by turnturtle





[/QUOTE]

What about material price increases? 


Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 28 Feb 21 at 1:27pm
Also the exchange rate has crashed in that time span . 


Posted By: George Solas
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 10:16am
Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
I just hope this means the prices can be kept down as at the moment £13,500 for a new 200 is a joke

I agree £13.5k is a joke especially when the price is  http://https//www.rssailing.com/rs-pricing-uk/?myBoat=RS200" rel="nofollow - £11.6k . 

Sorry to fact check you but I think 2021 marks the return to actual facts now the Wotsit In Chief no longer runs the free world...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 11:33am
Originally posted by George Solas

Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
I just hope this means the prices can be kept down as at the moment £13,500 for a new 200 is a joke

I agree £13.5k is a joke especially when the price is  http://https//www.rssailing.com/rs-pricing-uk/?myBoat=RS200" rel="nofollow - £11.6k . 

Sorry to fact check you but I think 2021 marks the return to actual facts now the Wotsit In Chief no longer runs the free world...

That is the, so called, 'ready to sail' package, If you actually want to sail it anywhere (and store it outdoors) you'll need a cover and a combi trailer as a minimum which takes the price up to £13.2k


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 11:47am
Comparing apples to apples, should be comparing "Ready to Sail". Extras on top such as trailers, covers etc are variable, and not everyone needs or wants a trailer or trolley.


Posted By: George Solas
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by George Solas

Originally posted by ClubRacer

 
I just hope this means the prices can be kept down as at the moment £13,500 for a new 200 is a joke

I agree £13.5k is a joke especially when the price is  http://https//www.rssailing.com/rs-pricing-uk/?myBoat=RS200" rel="nofollow - £11.6k . 

Sorry to fact check you but I think 2021 marks the return to actual facts now the Wotsit In Chief no longer runs the free world...

That is the, so called, 'ready to sail' package, If you actually want to sail it anywhere (and store it outdoors) you'll need a cover and a combi trailer as a minimum which takes the price up to £13.2k

Yep fair point. You will also need a car to tow it, boat park space to store it, wetsuit to stay warm, cash to buy the crew a hot Bovril. I think we should just stick to the cost of the thing floating in the water,


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 12:13pm
True but you also then have to compare it to something. I can see people buying a new boat without a road base but not without a cover or trolly though...

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 4:36pm
£11,550 for the boat but I think we will all agree that you need a launching trolley and top cover even if nothing else, so £12,328 to sail at one club or £13,417 if you want to do any opens (added road base and under cover).

Still a monumental amount of money for a 200, which has no technology and has hardly moved on in development.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 5:00pm
No technology? Lots of technology, just not cutting edge. And boat building is a real job, and boat builders need paying. And companies need to stay in business, so they can still be building the boats in another 10 years, which keeps second hand values healthy.

But no, I won't be spending 13 (or 11) grand on a small boat. Therefore I buy pre-owned. Usually many times pre-owned.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 5:35pm
Originally posted by George Solas


Yep fair point. You will also need a car to tow it, boat park space to store it, wetsuit to stay warm, cash to buy the crew a hot Bovril. I think we should just stick to the cost of the thing floating in the water,

Which ever way you want to look at it, but when you leave the show room you'll have coughed up £13500~ or just under if you want to source your own trailer. Those bits you've decided are "irrelevant" will still need to be bought from somewhere. You can't just write the cost of it off because its convenient for your argument

Nobody goes to buy a car and gets a price for it without any tyres


Posted By: andy h
Date Posted: 19 Mar 21 at 10:14am
I'll bet that 1996 £4,450 didn't include anything except the basic boat and sails either.  I've never bought a new boat (or car) in my life, but I did have a secondhand RS400 for over a decade, which retained well over half of the 4.5k I had paid for it in 2002 when I sold it on.  The RS model of reasonably overbuilt hulls with a long life, good marketing, funded events and association provided the lowest cost per annum sailing I've ever had, plus big fleets with the likes of Nick Craig and Roger Gilbert at the front of them.  That's why they are still in business when the opposition have crashed and burned.  Possibly explains some of the costs that go into a new 200 ... but I'd never buy a new one!

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NS14 2015
National 12 3344, Europe 397 and Mirror 53962 all gone with regret


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 20 Mar 21 at 7:07pm
RS costs seem to be aligned with everything else in life - I bought a new Kestrel from richard hartley, when he first started making boats in 1999, they were intentionally good value (he wasnt making much out of them - just getting some boats out there), £4999 all in inc combi, covers etc. Having just checked the Hartley website, the same spec now would be close to 16k



a mid range VW Golf in closing in on 30k these days


Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 21 Mar 21 at 5:46pm
Originally posted by sawman

RS costs seem to be aligned with everything else in life - I bought a new Kestrel from richard hartley, when he first started making boats in 1999, they were intentionally good value (he wasnt making much out of them - just getting some boats out there), £4999 all in inc combi, covers etc. Having just checked the Hartley website, the same spec now would be close to 16k



a mid range VW Golf in closing in on 30k these days

How do you put shoe's on your feet ? 
If you are not happy with the price don't buy it. If you think any one is getting rich off making or selling dinghy's your sadly mistaken. I here people complain about boat devaluement but are more than happy to buy a new car and lose a lot more money on it than there boat even cost. We have lost a good few boat builders through covid, because the reality is that boats are too cheap for a custom hand built product.


Posted By: sawman
Date Posted: 21 Mar 21 at 7:05pm
Originally posted by Sailerf

Originally posted by sawman

RS costs seem to be aligned with everything else in life - I bought a new Kestrel from richard hartley, when he first started making boats in 1999, they were intentionally good value (he wasnt making much out of them - just getting some boats out there), £4999 all in inc combi, covers etc. Having just checked the Hartley website, the same spec now would be close to 16k



a mid range VW Golf in closing in on 30k these days

How do you put shoe's on your feet ? 
If you are not happy with the price don't buy it. If you think any one is getting rich off making or selling dinghy's your sadly mistaken. I here people complain about boat devaluement but are more than happy to buy a new car and lose a lot more money on it than there boat even cost. We have lost a good few boat builders through covid, because the reality is that boats are too cheap for a custom hand built product.

I am hoping you intended quoting someone else!  I never said I wasn't happy with the price, not that I am buying. 





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