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Older Classes With Modern Rigs

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13615
Printed Date: 12 Aug 20 at 9:22pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Older Classes With Modern Rigs
Posted By: rich96
Subject: Older Classes With Modern Rigs
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 12:03pm
Following easing of the lockdown I've had the pleasure of sailing (rather than just racing) a Finn, OK and Albacore

These are all very old classes but with modern adjustable rigs

All 3 are a delight to sail compared to some of the more recent designs.

Is this just that they have been hugely developed over the years or just that they were always great boats - hence their continuing popularity ?

None of them are light but that perform well in the light or breeze and are just 'nice' to sail

Maybe its the 'non skiff' way that they sail that works ?




Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 12:21pm
Or maybe that's just your preferred style of boat?


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 12:24pm
Designers have to design something that will sell, true then and today, for every old class their were probably 10 that didn't last.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 1:14pm
I sailed an OK as a 'yoof' and thought it was a great boat back then (even with a wooden mast). Foam sandwich hulls and carbon fibre spars won't have done any harm to the performance and sailing manners so I'd think it's mostly because those old designs were well though out, conservative but not too conservative. Min weight for an OK is 72kg, same as the Blaze so no, not super light, but not a porker either.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 1:30pm
72 kg? Not a porker? What is it with you people and your casual acceptance of ridiculously heavy old tubs, they had no choice back then, we have a choice now, no wonder the Aero just obliterated new boat sales. 102 kg for a bloody Contender. In the real world it is AGAINST THE LAW for folk to be forced to lift over 32kg in the work place, why does everyone think it's OK to do it in our leisure?

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 1:59pm
Sales must be bad, Aero were only achieving 5 a week last year.

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Robert


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Sales must be bad, Aero were only achieving 5 a week last year.

And much of that was people replacing original boats which are now knackered! They are cheap for a reason


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H2 #115


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 2:55pm
its a good point though that classes like the Finn and OK are just really nice boats made better by modern rigs. I do wonder if they would be made even nicer if they went further and used modern materials for the hulls too!

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H2 #115


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 3:07pm
In reality nobody looks at the Aero and swoons - its a butt ugly beach boat with a butt ugly rig

However - people like it

It will be interesting to see if the Aero proves a durable as Lasers (loads of old Lasers still sail around at weekends going roughly the same speed as newer ones and don't fall apart). I suspect not ?

Its such a shame they didn't put an attractive rig on it. The high boom looks beach club style all the way







Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 3:23pm
It's a balance. The OK isn't the lightest thing around, but it is tough as old boots and it's rare to see any breakages at all. The also last forever. You could no doubt make it half the weight, but would it make it a better boat? Possibly, but it would certainly make it more fragile and maybe reduce the competitive life. At the last worlds the 3rd place boat was a (very well sailed) 30yr old glass hull with a modern carbon rig, however most current boats are epoxy foam sandwich so fairly modern. The surprising new trend however is heading back to the dinghy boom with home built wooden boats, but this time built using laser cut kits that slot together in a jig and get epoxy filleted together. It's a good use of one of the best sustainable materials there is (wood) and again at the last worlds there were 2-3 home built boats in the top 10 so it's not a slow choice either.

On the question of why are these old boats so nice to sail, IMO any class that has had a long period of even slight development gets nicer, more balanced and more refined as time goes on. Those with very fixed rules (SMODs) don't take long to look old fashioned as new developments come in. Of course the other important factor is the class themselves. It's dead easy to design a new 'better' boat, but building and sustaining a successful class is much, much harder.


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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by H2

its a good point though that classes like the Finn and OK are just really nice boats made better by modern rigs. I do wonder if they would be made even nicer if they went further and used modern materials for the hulls too!

They more or less do, only glass, no carbon or kevlar, in the hulls or boom but epoxy foam sandwich is the norm for modern OKs and I'll bet they are all carrying max correctors. Carbon fibre hulls would make them a bit stiffer but unless the min weight was significantly reduced* I doubt it would make the boat any nicer to sail and probably not significantly quicker.

* I don't see that happening, it's a fairly strict one design and to do so would devalue older boats and make it a two tier class.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by rich96

Its such a shame they didn't put an attractive rig on it. The high boom looks beach club style all the way

You do realise those droopy at the stern booms are a triumph of fashion over aerodynamics, and only exist because people got used to seeing one design boats with sails that don't fit due to twice as much mast rake as the designer ever envisaged?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 8:29pm
KazRob said :-

"At the last worlds the 3rd place boat was a (very well sailed) 30yr old glass hull with a modern carbon rig," 

There's progress and there's keeping what works. Not for nothing that Raceboards are way more popular than Formula. Formula Windsurfing had its 15 minutes of fame and then everybody realised that Raceboards could be raced anywhere and in any conditions by pretty much any half decent windsurfer. Rest assured kite racing will go the same way as FW and foiling Moths and Musto Skiffs have gone down exactly the same blind alley where only the elite can sail them well enough to have any chance of getting around the course in anything but ideal conditions.

Keeping old boats substantially the same (and remember OK's have carbon sticks these days and anybody can buy one, put it on a decent older hull and, potentially, get top 3 at the nationals) doesn't prevent people building V2's or Hybrids or RS Aeros or 100's. A cost/benefit analysis of shaving 20kg off the OK is probably going to demonstrate that is it not a good idea, why not just go and build something better without the constraints of a 70 year old one-design rule?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 25 Jun 20 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by H2

Originally posted by 423zero

Sales must be bad, Aero were only achieving 5 a week last year.

And much of that was people replacing original boats which are now knackered! They are cheap for a reason

423zero,
2019 was a great year for the Class and nearer to double that number of new RS Aeros were sold worldwide.
After the RS Aero successfully losing the Olympic vote having https://members.sailing.org/tools/documents/EQCSP4biiiMenWomenOnePersonDinghy-%5b24944%5d.pdf" rel="nofollow - won the selection trials  the Class went on to have a fantastic https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3629" rel="nofollow - Europeans in Garda and https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=results&rid=3682" rel="nofollow - Worlds in Australia . We were all set for similar again this year...

H2,
Absolutely not.
RS Aeros are NOT cheap, for a reason. Good value - yes! https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=9" rel="nofollow - Preloved RS Aeros are holding their value incredibly well, too well perhaps. Buyers of new boats over the past 6 years have generally been getting back what they paid for them new, when they come sell.
Hulls, spars & foils are all proving bullet proof.  I am yet to break any and I have been trying really hard for 6 years now. Epoxy and carbon are not cheap but they are light and strong - and some reliability comes from simplicity.

This past Sunday was testament to the RS Aeros sail-ability and durability and quite typical when we have fruity conditions at Lymington. We had a big wind against tide day with sea breeze and spring ebb both increasing against each other, which peaked at max gust 27kn at max tide flow producing some nasty waves. The main boats out there were a training bubble of 5  RS Aeros and a couple more playing on the fringes. There were very few other dinghies out whereas the week before had seen probably 80 various dinghies launch through the day. We happily weaved and bounced our RS Aero 9s though the tide chop and breaking wave crests, testing our own limits, whilst confident of the boats withstanding the abuse as we have done this many times before. Some sailors took some tumbles, but were quick to recover with no breakages or wear and tear.
Conditions peaked about an hour after these https://www.facebook.com/peter.barton.395/videos/10158616499261383/" rel="nofollow - VIDEOS  

rich96,
I can assure you there was nothing overly high about my boom racing the RS Aero 9 back upwind at 80kg against heavier Greg & Tom in 27kn.
Basically as soon as you engage the toe strap, (i.e. put your shoulders over the side), say in 8kn, the boom should be down to the horizontal but still adequate space under it.
Fashion over RS Aerodynamics? Yes, it is what you get used to looking at and sailors have been looking at Lasers and Contenders for a long time.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 3:37am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by rich96

Its such a shame they didn't put an attractive rig on it. The high boom looks beach club style all the way

You do realise those droopy at the stern booms are a triumph of fashion over aerodynamics, and only exist because people got used to seeing one design boats with sails that don't fit due to twice as much mast rake as the designer ever envisaged?


Umm - Laser ?, D Zero ?, OK ? Finn ?, Europe ? All of these ?

Ask why the Finn & Europe sailors sail with the boom on the deck - nothing to do with fashion


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 5:07am
The Aero boom makes a lot of sense to me with an aging sailing population.



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 6:58am
Originally posted by iGRF

That OK, it's a piece of junk, it's only kept going piglipsticking to chance the handicap. 

The OK has an absolutely lousy handicap LOLLOLLOL


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 7:23am
The Phantom is another class that was designed a long time ago (50th anniversary next year) but with modern materials is a brilliant boat. The skinny carbon rigs most use now, works really well and allow lighter sailors a real chance as Mr Bolland found last year.
Every time I let someone have a go in my boat they end up buying one if they are looking for a single hander.
Hull with centreboard and all fittings is just over 60kg so still pretty light for quite a big hull. 
Not a dig at the Aero but not sure what is included in the 30kg advertised for the Aero.
It would be interesting to compare weight on the rig of an Aero unstayed so hast to be self supporting verses the Phantom with shrouds etc but the CST is certainly light.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 8:45am
Interesting to see Finn & OK rigs described as modern. Yes the masts are carbon (and wing section for the Finns) but I always understood that the boom-on-the-deck style was a very old type of rig?

These rigs have specific shortcomings, though the low boom aspect is generally exaggerated. Not being able to play the mainsheet upwind is maybe the main drawback vs a 'modern' rig that gets its leech tension from the kicker.

Aesthetics & refinement count for a lot. I think the Europe is one of the prettiest and nicest handling singlehanders I have sailed (maybe biased here) . Aero styling is definitely 'meh' , DZero is nice but maybe too stark. Funnily enough the new style Lightning 368 looks one of the most attractive boats around. :)


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 9:48am
Originally posted by iGRF

72 kg? Not a porker? What is it with you people and your casual acceptance of ridiculously heavy old tubs, they had no choice back then, we have a choice now, no wonder the Aero just obliterated new boat sales. 102 kg for a bloody Contender. In the real world it is AGAINST THE LAW for folk to be forced to lift over 32kg in the work place, why does everyone think it's OK to do it in our leisure?


i see our not-so-learned  friend is  demonstrating his ignorance again 


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 9:56am
He is trying to get people to change boats like they do their cars, a updated car or different make, he doesn't get the sense of belonging to something, to meet and make friends and promote your organisation.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 10:21am
Originally posted by DiscoBall

Interesting to see Finn & OK rigs described as modern. Yes the masts are carbon (and wing section for the Finns) but I always understood that the boom-on-the-deck style was a very old type of rig?

They've been around for a long time but there are sound aero reasons for doing so.  

These rigs have specific shortcomings, though the low boom aspect is generally exaggerated. Not being able to play the mainsheet upwind is maybe the main drawback vs a 'modern' rig that gets its leech tension from the kicker.
 

The 'modern' rigs I have sailed recently (Blaze and Spice primarily) get leech tension from the mainsheet upwind meaning you can keep the boat on it's feet by releasing leech tension and allowing the head twist and spill excess power. Some boats do the same by playing the kicker but that seems inefficient to me.

Aesthetics & refinement count for a lot. I think the Europe is one of the prettiest and nicest handling singlehanders I have sailed (maybe biased here) . Aero styling is definitely 'meh' , DZero is nice but maybe too stark. Funnily enough the new style Lightning 368 looks one of the most attractive boats around. :)

I agree 100% about the Europe, delightful boat. I think you, like me, have a soft spot for those old unstayed rigs ad the Lightning 368 has one too Smile


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 10:40am
Worth looking at this:-
https://www.wb-sails.fi/en/sailmakers-log/rio-development" rel="nofollow - https://www.wb-sails.fi/en/sailmakers-log/rio-development
You can see how that clew corner of the sail is just in a turbulent mess contributing little. I know people talk about end plate effects, but all the big pressure differences are at the luff end of the sail. As said before droopy booms are associated with one designs where the leech length is fixed and the mast rake has increased over the years. See any droopy booms on Moths, 18s or high performance catamarans where they don't have a one design sail?



Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 10:47am
Jim - but you do see deck sweeper sails on Moths and A class cats to get the end plate effect but still leave room to get underneath it as they don't have a cockpit as such.

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 10:57am
I agree that the "end plate effect" is over-rated in most small dinghies. I suspect that if you had a tell tale on the bottom of the boom it would show that the air flow across from the windward side to the leeward side, under the boom, is non existent,but it would show you how disturbed the air flow is generally in that area.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 11:49am
Adjusting mast rake for the wind strength and then dumping the boom at a specific position on the transom by playing the traveller gives you very repeatable leech tension and sheeting angle.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 11:51am
Do Finn, OK, Europe, Contender have a set leech length, or just a maximum?



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 1:29pm
Nothing said so far makes me want to step out of my 25yr old design 300.  The rig works well, you don’t play the kicker to ‘spill wind’ the rig flexes to do that; dumping the main to control tension isn’t very efficient and you also then make the mainsail deeper.

You can walk across easily without worrying about the boom height, the hiking position is comfortable, the boats manouverable and you really can carve it through a gybe in pretty much anything that is sensible to be sailing in.  The fact that it’s performance still outshines most newer boats says the the concept is pretty much spot on... without it needing to be reinvented!


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RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Do Finn, OK, Europe, Contender have a set leech length, or just a maximum?


From memory the OK has a maximum and its tight on "fast" sails. Its been a while since I measured one, but if there is a minimum its never been explored on the sails I've measured!

The contender leech I understand is nowhere near maximum because if it was it would be unsailable


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by NicolaJayne


Originally posted by iGRF

72 kg? Not a porker? What is it with you people and your casual acceptance of ridiculously heavy old tubs, they had no choice back then, we have a choice now, no wonder the Aero just obliterated new boat sales. 102 kg for a bloody Contender. In the real world it is AGAINST THE LAW for folk to be forced to lift over 32kg in the work place, why does everyone think it's OK to do it in our leisure?

i see our not-so-learned  friend is  demonstrating his ignorance again 


Thanks for reminding me lass, it's 25kgs, it's been a while since I had to study health and safety in the workplace.

Either way, if dinghys were stock you wouldn't be able to move them on your own without an assisting device.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 4:37pm
You aren't picking them up, you are dragging them on a trolley, you can pull substantially more.

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Robert


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 5:05pm
1000kg on the flat using a pump truck, pushing, pulling is less.

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Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Jun 20 at 7:07pm
I seem to remember a decade or so ago someone pointing out to GRF, as he was before Apple took over, that dinghies are rather bigger than windsurfers, and if you scale up the volume, even older dinghies don't come out too badly.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 6:39am
The other problem is that if you reduce the hull weight the crew weight becomes more significant. This makes it even harder for a normal sized adult to be competitive against smaller people in either singlehanded or two man boats.

Note most of the renowned weight carrying classes are quite heavy, Osprey, GP14, Wayfarer etc


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 7:25am
Exactly Paramedic. 
To continue, as the ratio of crew weight to boat weight moves to the crew being a higher proportion the more sensitive the boat becomes to crew positioning and movement. A desirable trait for the more skilled and subtle sailor but as iGRF also wants boats that everyman/woman can step in and sail, perhaps not quite so friendly to the clumsy beginner.

As with everything, there is no right answer.


Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by 423zero

1000kg on the flat using a pump truck, pushing, pulling is less.


given you can get 2000kg rated pump trucks...  although at  that kind of  weight it  really  is on the flat ona  'polished concrete' warehouse floor only 



Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by NicolaJayne


Originally posted by iGRF

72 kg? Not a porker? What is it with you people and your casual acceptance of ridiculously heavy old tubs, they had no choice back then, we have a choice now, no wonder the Aero just obliterated new boat sales. 102 kg for a bloody Contender. In the real world it is AGAINST THE LAW for folk to be forced to lift over 32kg in the work place, why does everyone think it's OK to do it in our leisure?

i see our not-so-learned  friend is  demonstrating his ignorance again 


Thanks for reminding me lass, it's 25kgs, it's been a while since I had to study health and safety in the workplace.

Either way, if dinghys were stock you wouldn't be able to move them on your own without an assisting device.


you are incorect there Graham 

repeated lift of  any none trivial weight   can  fall fouls of the  Manual handling Ops regulations , one off   heavier lifts  can be allowed ...   


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 1:38pm
The assisting device being launch trolley.


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Robert


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 2:06pm
Originally posted by iGRF

 
Either way, if dinghys were stock you wouldn't be able to move them on your own without an assisting device.

When did you last see someone moving a dinghy without an "assisting device", Graham. Or are people in your neck of the woods so macho they don't bother with trolleys?


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Peter Barton
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 4:00pm
Important to be able to carry your RS Aero above the high tide mark when adventure camping!

https://www.rsaerosailing.org/index.asp?p=forum&fid=1&tid=8067" rel="nofollow - Norway to Port
Magne Klann sailed the length of Norway in an RS Aero in 2018. His adventure started at the northern tip, deep inside the Arctic Circle, and ended at the southern most tip - 49 days later after 1158 nautical miles.
Magne lifted his RS Aero ashore and camped overnight, fishing along the way and carrying equipment and provisions onboard. 









Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 4:32pm
Love it Peter! But to be fair being a strapping Scandinavian lifting an Aero wasnt going to be any trouble. I expect he could have used a Finn...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by PeterG


Originally posted by iGRF

 Either way, if dinghys were stock you wouldn't be able to move them on your own without an assisting device.

When did you last see someone moving a dinghy without an "assisting device", Graham. Or are people in your neck of the woods so macho they don't bother with trolleys?


Everytime they come ashore into the steep Shingle at high tide and have no choice other than to drag it clear of the shorebreak something physically impossible for one person to do alone.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 9:26pm
Pretty sure an Aero would look like a golf ball if dumped on a shingle beach as you are describing.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Jun 20 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Pretty sure an Aero would look like a golf ball if dumped on a shingle beach as you are describing.

Au contraire, there's an Aero 7 doing very well, he's the only one that can recover the boat and bring it up the beach without using a winch or visiting the in-house hernia clinic operated by Contenderwives.com

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Jun 20 at 6:56am
That's good then, shingle beaches on inhospitable coastlines are now catered for. The Farr is pretty light too, so 2 options at least.

Strange that wooden fishing boats of yesteryear designed to come into beaches like that weren't made as light as possible, but strong enough to survive being dumped on stones. You should have passed your wisdom on to them, too.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Jun 20 at 8:15am
Originally posted by Rupert



Strange that wooden fishing boats of yesteryear designed to come into beaches like that weren't made as light as possible, but strong enough to survive being dumped on stones. You should have passed your wisdom on to them, too.


Well had the very point of their existence been for sporting competitive use by sail & single males of ahem advancing years and not necessarily weight lifting capability, I might have just done that.

But since the side effect of their existence is to steal our fixed marks, deploy lobster pots, lines, drift nets and to continue to trawl what is a marine conservation as well as our sailing area, I choose to deny them the wisdom of my considerable years and maritime experience.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Jun 20 at 8:16am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Rupert



Strange that wooden fishing boats of yesteryear designed to come into beaches like that weren't made as light as possible, but strong enough to survive being dumped on stones. You should have passed your wisdom on to them, too.


Well had the very point of their existence been for sporting competitive use by sail & single males of ahem advancing years and not necessarily weight lifting capability, I might have just done that.

But since the side effect of their existence is to steal our fixed marks, deploy lobster pots, lines, drift nets and to continue to trawl what is a marine conservation as well as our sailing area, I choose to deny them the wisdom of my considerable years and maritime experience.




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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: i luv wight 2
Date Posted: 28 Jun 20 at 9:28pm
I remember doing a nationals at a S Coast steep shingly beach ( Worthing ? ) , Cherubs shared with Seaflys- the recommended method of returning was to sail and surf straight at the beach and ride up the shingles and then just step out on dry land...  Works OK with Seafly with a pivoting board and rudder and a really heavy boat, but not so good in delicate Cherub, daggerboard and daggerboard rudder!


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 29 Jun 20 at 9:13am
I remember aiming for the beach with a 505 at Eastbourne but they used to have fenders ready to slip under you.

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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 29 Jun 20 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Gordon 1430

I remember aiming for the beach with a 505 at Eastbourne but they used to have fenders ready to slip under you.

One of my earliest memories is of being a toddler and sat in the spare spinnaker bag of an old 505 (pre-chutes) that was being sailed by my parents and them surfing toward the beach and the boat going up those fenders helped by a team of people! I do not recall having a life jacket or what the plan was if the boat capsized....


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H2 #115


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Jun 20 at 2:01pm
The good old days

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Robert


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Jun 20 at 3:21pm
The good old days before beach re profiling and near vertical shingle walls after the odd storm or wind direction shift.

Ordinarily that's what happens you can get a fair way up before getting out, but not always.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 Jun 20 at 7:00pm
The 'good old days' when you could put your kids in a sack and tie them down to the foredeck

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Robert


Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 29 Jun 20 at 11:41pm
People who want carbon fibre foam cored boats instead of glass and foam often overestimate the weight saving. Most dinghies are already at minimum skin weights for durability of the panel instead of strength. The use of carbon often is wasted as the loads are not high enough and the skin weight cant be dropped further due to lack of skin durability. Just means more money for the boat.

On bigger boats where the loads drive the skin weight and not the durability then it makes sense.


Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 9:14am
Agreed - for most dinghies use of carbon is great for the spars but too often applied simply for  'marketing' purposes in relation to the hull I suspect.   There are exceptions where it is appropriate of course .. but they are very few in reality.   If the customers really are prepared to pay a premium for performance then always (first at least)  in the rig !



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 5:42pm
Carbon fibre resists harness hooks punching holes in the deck better than ply, to that I can attest.

But to do the job properly I think I'd go for some sort of carbon kevlar weave.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 7:19pm
Kevlar is not ideal if light weight is a priority having poor compressive strength which is not ideal in a balanced sandwich structure.  It also wicks. Another route to durability might be to go for a higher density core than the ubiquitous H80, which would be less prone to denting, or consider including an additional layer of laminate on the bottom panels.

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Happily living in the past


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 7:56pm
You are right Kevlar is a pretty awful fibre to have in a composite laminate on a boat due to the problems that you mentioned ( poor compressive strength, water uptake and “fluffing “ up when cut or sanded), but it does do one thing-it has a low density so it will increase the laminate thickness without too much weight increase which can, in itself , improve the impact resistance of the laminate compared to glass or even carbon . But I agree I would never put in a a marine laminate it is expensive and there are better ways of making a dinghy laminate.


Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 8:18pm
The main advantage of carbon in a hull its its stiffness relative to the same weight of glass. You'd be surprised however at how much glass there is in many carbon tubes and layups because it does do some things better than carbon does.

Why some classes use kevlar I really don't understand. 


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 30 Jun 20 at 9:31pm
Anyone have experience with reinforced thermoplastics?


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 01 Jul 20 at 7:40am
Originally posted by Paramedic

The main advantage of carbon in a hull its its stiffness relative to the same weight of glass. You'd be surprised however at how much glass there is in many carbon tubes and layups because it does do some things better than carbon does.

Why some classes use kevlar I really don't understand. 

Because the rules ban carbon... It might seem archaic in today's world but truly international one-design classes are not quick to change due to the consensus needed between national member associations. This is worsened by the perception in some parts of the world that carbon is still super expensive, when I don't think that's necessarily true any more - certainly for things such as kite poles, booms and tillers / extensions. 


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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo




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