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Opinions on the Europe and other things

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Choosing a boat
Forum Discription: Ask any questions about the sport!
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13491
Printed Date: 14 Jul 20 at 1:43am
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Topic: Opinions on the Europe and other things
Posted By: GeorgeT415
Subject: Opinions on the Europe and other things
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 10:41am
Hi, all

I am currently a laser sailor but looking to move into something a bit larger as I am on the larger side and find getting under the boom and the very small cockpit are a bit challenging, I do however like the look of the Europe. I would welcome any opinions on the boat and any suggestions for other boats. I am 5ft 10" and weigh c.92kg

Many thanks



Replies:
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 12:48pm
The Europe is aimed at similar size people to the Laser Radial so you are too big. The Europe also has a fairly shallow cockpit and low boom so not really helping your situation.

I suggest you look at OKs

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OK 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: GeorgeT415
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 1:13pm
Thank you very much, but I was aiming for a dinghy along a more open cockpit plan as the cockpit idea in general is a bit of a turn off for me I also need to make sure the boat is reasonably cheap and I thought OK's were a little expensive? I also had a look at boats like the contender as I am not opposed to trapezing but they were also a bit expensive. Have you any ideas that might fit with that description?


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 1:22pm
You are Phantom sized but I don't know how much you would have to pay to get a sound one good to go. 



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 1:23pm
The Europe is a nice little boat, but definitely not for folk on the larger side. I don't know that good recent boats of any class are particularly cheaper than another, after all they all cost much the same to build if they are of the same materials. I'm not sure the low boom of the OK is especially helpful in this context. The Phantom is an obvious choice for sailors who want a bit more room in the boat. Pre foam sandwich/carbon spar ones are cheap, but also not very competitive.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 3:13pm
Give the OK a try as youíre a good size for them. While the boom looks low thereís tons of room under it in reality and far more than a Laser. The deep cockpit and popping the mainsheet off an armful when tacking help create more space. If youíre near the south coast the class demo boat is at Stokes Bay if you want to try it. Have a look at https://www.okdinghy.co.uk/classifieds/ thereís boats there from a few hundred upwards

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 4:24pm
Take a look at the Supernova.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 4:51pm
I've moved from a Laser to Europe in the last year, and love it.

I'm 5ft10 and was 95kg, but used it as motivation to shed some pounds and I'm now 80-5kg.

Above 85kg I'd say you will struggle to tack without getting water in over the back corner, but you'll still have a lot of fun.

The boom is low, but you don't have kicker on upwind so as long as you ease the main it pops up in the tack. It's all about the timing.

My main reason for swapping was the Laser just took too much toll on a dodgy shoulder and elbow, but the health benefits of losing weight and getting fit have made it a total life changer, plus it is a fabulous boat to sail.

The open meetings are fun as it's a really diverse fleet (at nationals 50% were under 40, and 40% were female).

My boat is reasonably competitive (I'm the weak link) and cost less the £1,500.

If you don't fancy the weight loss, I'd recommend the OK. As others have said, the cockpit is so deep that there is loads of headroom.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 5:05pm
Another +1 for the OK here but definitely consider a Phantom or, if you sail on open water, a Blaze too. All there will carry weight well, Blaze is best if it has room to stretch it's legs, Phantom and OK are good all rounders and both cope with restricted waters better than the Blaze (though I sail my Blaze inland as well as on the sea). For a decent club level competitive boat a Blaze or Phantom probably starts at around £1500 not sure about OKs.

I agree with Gareth T that the Europe is a gorgeous boat and lovely to sail but, if you hope to be competitive you'll definitely need a stiff mast and the right sail* (same with an OK TBF but suitable rigs are more plentiful). When I was considering a Europe rigs for heavyweights were few and far between.

* I'm 75kg and 5' 7"


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 8:58pm
Donít discount a 300 or a 600, amazing amount of performance from both for the money and plenty of space in both

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RS300 and RS200, ex Musto Skiff


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 01 Jan 20 at 10:34pm
Iím not sure youíll think it shnazzy enough, but youíd fit a Solo just fine, thereís one for every budget and it has the best racing circuit around. Probably already some at your club, especially if you sail inland.  Easy to sell on too when you want to upgrade or fancy a change.  


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 1:12pm
Have you thought about a 2 hander ? Enterprise springs to mind, I know a couple of people who have sailed them solo for years, plenty of room.

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Robert


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 2:50pm
Why on earth would anyone deliberately chose a 2 hander to regularly single hand?  


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 5:34pm
Size, we used to have a member who was 6'6" and 22 stone.

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Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 5:39pm
Originally posted by A2Z


Why on earth would anyone deliberately chose a 2 hander to regularly single hand? †


I own a couple of singlehanders and still choose the Firefly to sail by myself on occasion. It's fun.

However, I suspect a bigger singlehanded boat makes sense here. A Finn ticks most boxes if the slipway isn't steep!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 6:16pm
The OP isnít a giant.  5í10Ē and 92kg is not at all unusual, and is perfectly competitive at club level in any number of singlehanders.  Even a Solo is perfectly suited at that size, never mind the real big boysí boats like the Finn. But it is way too light for nearly any two man boat if you donít want to limit yourself to light winds only.  


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 6:34pm
Forgot Firefly, lovely boat, Mirror too, probably Heron would suit too, only any good if you feel confident handling 2 sails.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 6:36pm
Heron and Mirror are both routinely sailed singlehanded, they even have recommended handicaps for it I believe.

IIRC 22 stone used to be considered optimum for an Ent.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 6:58pm
Most of my 2 hander capsizes have been due to jib not being uncleated, so it's easy to understand people's reluctance to try it or recommend it.

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Robert


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 8:34pm
Iíve no problem with occasionally taking your two man boat out on your own when you are crewless and conditions are favourable, but to suggest one as a primary source of single handing is perverse.  There are myriad singlehanders that would be appropriate for the OP without going down some ultra niche route.  


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 8:52pm
The Firefly was the singlehanded boat in the 1948 Olympics so there is a precedent. Admittedly they decided it wasn't ideal and chose the Finn in 1952. If the OP sails solo 90% of the time but want's to have the option to sail with another occasionally then a small two hander makes more sense than a large unarig. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 9:45pm
I am hoping to sail my Mirror tomorrow, with the Jib,I will not comply and move mast into single handed position, sorry if this is strange, but I am going to do it anyway.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 10:31pm
Hmmmm.....I refer the honourable gentleman to his previous post LOL

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 10:40pm
That is so perverse pointing out previous posts

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 10:50pm
LOLLOLLOL

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 11:07pm
I am going to form an association for solo sailors of double handed boats, SSDHDA, Solo Sailors of Double Handed Dinghies Association.
I am going to come "OUT" I sometimes sail a 2 hander SOLO.
Edited to add SOLO

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 11:17pm
https://vimeo.com/100984487" rel="nofollow - https://vimeo.com/100984487

Can I join please?



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jan 20 at 11:25pm
The worst culprits actually trapeze and use main,jib and spinnaker on their own Ffs

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 10:07am
Yeah but only in <6 knots......... Embarrassed

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 10:32am
Sail what you like, but to recommend to someone they should get an Enterprise because they find a Laser unergonomic is crazy advise.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 10:44am
The Ent is a 'sit in' boat and very kind to older knees and hips and larger people. The OP is not particularly big (5' 10" and 15 stone or so) but finds the small cockpit of the Laser uncomfortable. In his case the Ent is probably not the best choice as he's a bit light for it solo but for the 22 stone/6' 6" sailor mentioned up-thread it could be ideal.

Lots of other alternatives too though, many also mentioned in this thread.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 11:00am
Almost half the boats in Heron nationals last year were sailed solo, can't see a problem with it myself, whatever works for an individual sailor.

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Robert


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 12:53pm
There is a big difference between sailing a two man boat like a heron/mirror/gull or firefly singlehanded than sailing a larger boat like a enterprise.
Still think the op would be better off with a proper singlehander .


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 2:38pm
I have done both over the years and it's entirely a matter of size. The Ent I had in my 30's was no harder to singlehand than the Heron I had as a teenager, the only significant difference is that the upper wind limit is, obviously, lower. The Ent also has the option of a cruising rig or, if you're a cheapskate like me, you could scrounge a suit of Firefly sails from a mate and stick them on it. I taught my son to sail using just the Firefly mainsail and half centreboard to balance the boat.

We don't know precisely what his issues are that make the Laser uncomfortable but, I agree that if the OP can find a singlehander that suits him that would likely be a better option.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jan 20 at 8:40pm
People shouldn't be put off from sailing a dinghy that suits them, that allows them to sail with physical issues.

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Robert


Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 9:33am
When I was in my teens (yes, ages ago!), I was taught to sail in an Enterprise, first with the instructor, then solo.
By choosing a suit of sails suitable to the conditions it's perfectly ok to by singlehanded.
IIRC, the Firefly rig is about 10sq.ft. smaller than the Ent, but the Firefly hull has moretendency to roll...

I'm quite happy s/h in our Wanderer - it's the 14ft version of the Wayfarer, fitted with roller furling for the job, slab reefing for the main it's able to be sailed I'm different wind strengths.

The traditional sailing dinghies (Ent, Firefly, Heron etc) over a more user-friendly type of accommodation than the "sit-on" modern designs like the laser, Zero etc..

Colin


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 5:22pm
Sailing it is one thing, racing it competitively is another.

Most of us race our boats and don't just go out for a potter about. If you want to race a boat competitively a smaller set or flatter set of sails are not going to enable you to sail a doublehander competitively against a fully crewed competitive boat.

My recommendation, take a good luck at the other singlehanders sailed at your club and have a go in a few, then make up your mind.

-------------
OK 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 6:38pm
If a person needs to sail an unusual dinghy due to ill health or other physical reasons, PY should be adjusted accordingly, they should not be disadvantaged.

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by ColPrice2002

When I was in my teens (yes, ages ago!), I was taught to sail in an Enterprise, first with the instructor, then solo.
By choosing a suit of sails suitable to the conditions it's perfectly ok to by singlehanded.
IIRC, the Firefly rig is about 10sq.ft. smaller than the Ent, but the Firefly hull has moretendency to roll...

Ent is 10.7m2/115sq ft Firefly has 8.36m2/90sq ft is about 25sq ft smaller or a very useful 22% smaller.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 7:53pm
This guy is a similar size to most club laser sailors, but is looking for something a bit more comfortable.

In terms of bangs for bucks, I'd suggest a Supernova. The laser fleet at my old club pretty much all migrated to them, some via phantoms, and seem to love them.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Jan 20 at 10:21pm
I had a mk1 'nova and didn't get on with it, main issues were the stupid single toestrap, the tiny rudder and the difficult to read fully battened sail. To me it was just a Laser in a party frock but YMMV. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 12:27am
I have have also owned a mk 1 nova . Itís a lovely boat , much better than a laser but I didnít like the fully battened sail and my knees didnít like all the kneeling lol 😂😂😀

Am still toying with the thought of a d zero 😀



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 7:25am
Originally posted by 423zero

I am hoping to sail my Mirror tomorrow, with the Jib,I will not comply and move mast into single handed position, sorry if this is strange, but I am going to do it anyway.

I do that in mine when I fancy a giggle...I even put the spinnaker up too.


-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 8:28am
The Mirror is a nice cruising boat singlehanded or with toddlers without the jib, but for racing or more fun the jib makes a big difference to upwind performance. Adding the spinnaker (and elastic on the tiller so you can let go) makes a slow boat lots of fun.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 10:08am
Does the Heron have a single hander mast position ?

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Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 12:38pm
Not as far as I know, certainly didn't when I sailed one but the jib is pretty small and should not tax a competent sailor too much. I see they now sport a sym kite which might be a bit much for the casual sailor but see Rupert's post above.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 06 Jan 20 at 2:36pm
I sailed my Lark s/h at Frensham years ago - in the light, obvs (I was <80Kg then). Even with the kite. Hoisting was one thing, gybing and dropping quite another. It didn't go to plan.

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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo




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