Print Page | Close Window

Foilers

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13439
Printed Date: 11 Dec 19 at 12:49pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Foilers
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Foilers
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 10:29am
This got me thinking, 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bda4ji4l74qmdoj/serveimage.jpeg?dl=0" rel="nofollow - https://www.dropbox.com/s/bda4ji4l74qmdoj/serveimage.jpeg?dl=0

Why are foiling Moths still based around the super narrow hulls that were the final development of the lowriders? I guess weight and availability of moulds high have something to do with it but is there another reason? I'd have thought an easier to sail platform like the Skeeter would make the boat more accessible to more 'normal' sailors?


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



Replies:
Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 11:09am
They are all down to the aero package. The smaller hulls are much more aerodynamic than what was in the pic. 

A lot of the AC sailors have had their moths in the wind testing tunnels alongside cup parts. Some of those guys have all sorts of fairings and capping on their boats that is not standard. 

I know the atomic moth was recently designed almost purely through CAD to make it as aero as possible when flying.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 11:38am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I'd have thought an easier to sail platform like the Skeeter would make the boat more accessible to more 'normal' sailors?

Minimum drag in displacement sailing is absolutely critical to early take off. And why would they want to make it accessible to 'normal' sailors? Its a development class so only performance counts.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 11:55am
Yeah, that's pretty much what I though, didn't want to put words into peoples mouths. 

TBF if it's possible to get an Oppi foiling then anything is possible Big smile

(How do we upload images......)

http://gcaptain.com/the-foiling-optimist-you-wish-you-had-as-a-kid/" rel="nofollow - https://gcaptain.com/the-foiling-optimist-you-wish-you-had-as-a-kid/





-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 1:56pm
I think as others have said foiling is a bit Marmite. If it dings your bell then you want to get airborne quickly and reduce drag once flying. I guess there is a market for boats that are easy(ier) to foil which I suspect people will use when they first learn to foil or whilst on holiday in the Med for a bit of fun but I do not see much of a market for the kind of thing in your OP as a result. Personally have no desire to foil but have no issues with others doing so if it makes them happy!

-------------
H2 #115


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 3:37pm
Really looking forward to having a go in a Skeeter one day. Must be the scow sailor in me!
The other stable way to go is a cat, of course.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 3:43pm
Foiling's not for me either, too narrow a wind range (a bit like Formula Windsurfing compared to Raceboards) and I'm no longer agile enough. 

I reckon you won't get airborne much quicker than the Oppi, 5 knots is lift off speed!


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 4:41pm
Actually to get foiling quickly is not the answer if you are after speed. You actually want to get going pretty fast in displacement mode before you get full lift from the foils that way the foils can be as small and as low drag as possible to reward you with speed. You can obviously control the angle of incidence but with too much that can become draggy.

Given big enough foils you could foil a Solo (have the CA considered that, might need to loose 3kg) but doubtful that top speed would increase. 

The most successful foilers I have seen are the windsurfers, they can adjust power input with different size sails and lower the drag as the wind gets up with smaller sails and generally have a good useable wind range. 

So you want the lowest possible aero and hydro drag, the hydro comes down to low weight both boat and sailor and low drag which tends to lead to hull forms requiring a more skilled crew. Obviously if you’re pretending to be the ultimate sailing contest you can have aerospace computers doing the controls. 

Somewhere there is study that a black coloured moth with be so many boat lengths quicker over a mile or something. This is to do with the heat of the boat as it interacts with the airflow - amazing that someone got funding for that bit of research.  


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by tink

Actually to get foiling quickly is not the answer if you are after speed. You actually want to get going pretty fast in displacement mode before you get full lift from the foils that way the foils can be as small and as low drag as possible to reward you with speed. You can obviously control the angle of incidence but with too much that can become draggy.

Makes sense

Given big enough foils you could foil a Solo (have the CA considered that, might need to loose 3kg) but doubtful that top speed would increase.

Naw, 3kg won't make a blind bit of difference Wink  

The most successful foilers I have seen are the windsurfers, they can adjust power input with different size sails and lower the drag as the wind gets up with smaller sails and generally have a good useable wind range.

And change the foils too (or have a quiver of boards). As an aside were there any foiling boards at Weymouth? How did they do?

So you want the lowest possible aero and hydro drag, the hydro comes down to low weight both boat and sailor and low drag which tends to lead to hull forms requiring a more skilled crew. Obviously if you’re pretending to be the ultimate sailing contest you can have aerospace computers doing the controls. 

Somewhere there is study that a black coloured moth with be so many boat lengths quicker over a mile or something. This is to do with the heat of the boat as it interacts with the airflow - amazing that someone got funding for that bit of research.  

Thanks tink, interesting stuff.


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 5:06pm
I did try foiling in my Solo but the rudder wouldn't fit through the transom port.

And of course you all know that I would be anti a rule change to allow enough clearance!


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 15 Oct 19 at 6:48pm
About bigger boats but the physics is the same
https://www.tipandshaft.com/en/americas-cup-en/americas-cup-the-design-wars-are-under-way/" rel="nofollow - https://www.tipandshaft.com/en/americas-cup-en/americas-cup-the-design-wars-are-under-way/


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 16 Oct 19 at 1:01am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

  I'd have thought an easier to sail platform like the Skeeter would make the boat more accessible to more 'normal' sailors?


I suspect that the 'accessible' dinghy foiler is a dead duck - windsurf foilers seem more likely to get a wider takeup (and there is possible inclusion of windfoiling in the 2024 Olympics).

Having owned a foil moth and despite never having windsurfed, if I suddenly had a desperate desire to go foiling again it would probably be more appealing to learn to windsurf and then foil from scratch. Rather that than pay X (3,4,5?) times more for a foiling dinghy that will be more complex, breakable, expensive to insure, etc.

The real elephant in the room with 'foilers are the future' is that almost any cheap, robust hiking dinghy is just as much of an adrenaline rush if you find big enough waves - and waves are free... Wink After all there are 20kt Albacores out there LOLConfused

 








Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 16 Oct 19 at 10:26am
I agree. As someone who struggled to keep low rider Moth upright and concentrated 100% in breeze in an Rs300, surely the appeal is to be a spectator whilst the superstars make it look easy?

The gap for a " mortal" in wind strength between not enough wind and too much makes each sailing hour v expensive

Surely making it accessible reduces the appeal?


Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 16 Oct 19 at 12:02pm
It's all about going fast so lets get a bit radical.You need the smallest foils possible to lower the drag. This implies a high take off speed,so my solution is either a ski jump type launch or big bungee to get up to speed quick. We can then dispense with all the starting business and have a Le Mans type start. As the wind machines will nt be able to start from the water by themselves it will sort out the good, the very good and the superhuman.

-------------
Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Alpha 220PR


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 16 Oct 19 at 1:34pm
Narrow Moths are easier to sail that wide Moths (Mag5 etc)

The foils underneath dampen things further. Controlling flight is the tricky bit, but is learned without too much difficulty.

Foiling is held back by COST and sailor *FITNESS (*Moths), not by sailing difficulty.

Edit:- kind of what Disco Ball was pointing at.


-------------
http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Oct 19 at 2:08pm
I can weigh in here with a bit of actual expertise crossing as it does into my commercial world, where most of the development now enjoyed by windsurfers (who are playing catch up)was carried out b the kite business where foiling had been growing quite quickly as those who would assign the sport to the Olympic bin have pursued higher speeds at both ends of the spectrum, (early take off, high top speed) as increasing sized foils in area with shallower chord have increasingly been in play chasing 30 knots + top end.

The difference obviously in the free sail world is the lack of necessity for manual or semi automatic aoa correction, riders do it with a literal nod of their head or slight movement of their body atititude, I'm not confident enough to try the sort of foils employed in the kite and windsurf world on my Farr just yet, but I'm going to eventually, which will be interesting to say the least.

-------------
https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 16 Oct 19 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by iGRF


The difference obviously in the free sail world is the lack of necessity for manual or semi automatic aoa correction, riders do it with a literal nod of their head or slight movement of their body atititude, I'm not confident enough to try the sort of foils employed in the kite and windsurf world on my Farr just yet, but I'm going to eventually, which will be interesting to say the least.


I guess the Farr is small enough, and if you were trapping fairly upright...but what would happen with the rudder?!?

There's some funny 'barking up the wrong tree' examples of trying to fit those sort of foils to racing kayaks, with the very over-optimistic idea that you could make the seat move fore and aft:
https://www.surfski.info/latest-news/story/1586/revo-foil-disrupting-the-surfski-world.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.surfski.info/latest-news/story/1586/revo-foil-disrupting-the-surfski-world.html
Seems to have sunk without trace since this article.




Posted By: yottiemad
Date Posted: 18 Oct 19 at 7:56pm
You have to love igrf/woodbotherer. he is a catalyst on this forum. fast approaching 70yrs after a lifetime on boards, now a dinghy sailor. he has bought and sold a selection of boats, mostly new in the last 10yrs so good for all the classes he has visited. his current sea boat he has decided need foils and more speed on the reaches so a bowsprit sail is required. he has foiling knowledge as a vendor of foiling kite boards and their designers. He has been invloved in the the most lenghty tetchy (not from him) recent posting re lee bow effect which has resulted in a very good sailor and poster throwing his toys out and resigning from the forum plus others going to the same wall but not crossing it. (a shame as reading the whole thread they argued the same/similar things under different names) despite recent events he still thinks this is the place to post for advice for adding foils and a bowsprit to a boat/hull made of wood that he wishes was all carbon fibre with rudder gantrys foil control from the fixed bowsprit. as an aged person with 2 kids in there late twenties who grew up at HISC I appreacited the snowflake comments. Neither of my kids are currently at Hisc but the snowflake comment reads true to the family rows that has been generated from the attitude they learnt as kids.



-------------
YOTTIEMAD


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 12:03pm
As a relatively recent returned to the forum I have enjoyed the experience.

I have seen the discussions about trying to revitalise the forum.

My following comment refers generally rather than just to more recent posts. But should personal arguments and posts verging on an attack be part of the forum?

It's a group of people talking about boats surely?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by ian.r.mcdonald

But should personal arguments and posts verging on an attack be part of the forum?

No

It's a group of people talking about boats surely?

Yes

Good post Ian Thumbs Up


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 5:26pm
Grif is one of the more interesting posters, however in the past he has made posts that should have been an automatic lifetime ban.

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 5:50pm
Trouble is, bar banter written down can sound far more aggressive than intended sometimes. I know I've both been offended when actually I shouldn't, and I think have offended, when the tone was wrong on my part.

But no banter at all would make this a bit boring, wouldn't it?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 5:52pm
But how did a foiling thread get so far off subject?

-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 6:15pm
Lee ferry glide thread drift

-------------
Robert


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 6:42pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Trouble is, bar banter written down can sound far more aggressive than intended sometimes. I know I've both been offended when actually I shouldn't, and I think have offended, when the tone was wrong on my part.

But no banter at all would make this a bit boring, wouldn't it?

This ^


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 6:52pm
Give this a go  https://www.ayrs.org/repository/AYRS074.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.ayrs.org/repository/AYRS074.pdf

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 7:05pm
Thumbs Up

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 7:11pm
Nice if something like this was available in the U.K.  http://www.windknife.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.windknife.com/

For simple getting foiling dihedral foils have a lot of proven history, don’t require a control system and can be made with relatively cheap straight foils. Foilers from the 70s 80s simply worked without a lot of fuss. See Mayfly  https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/foiling-forefront-vs-fakes/" rel="nofollow - https://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/foiling-forefront-vs-fakes/

The ideology of the UFO is spot on, focusing on more people foiling rather than going for ultimate speed. 


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 7:44pm
Stand up in a conventional dinghy. You get the same height above the water as if you are foiling, and you need to concentrate on your balance.

No money spent. And you can sit down and have a proper sail when the wind gets up?


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 7:50pm
Funniest thing I have read in years. If you capsized your dinghy as you launch it and take it for a swim you get the whole experience.

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 19 Oct 19 at 10:02pm
Maybe a bit more slowly? LOL

(Instant gratification is quick mind you)


-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 20 Oct 19 at 1:27am
Originally posted by tink

Nice if something like this was available in the U.K.  http://www.windknife.com/" rel="nofollow - http://www.windknife.com/



http://www.windknife.com/full-foil/5-inquiry-form" rel="nofollow - http://www.windknife.com/full-foil/5-inquiry-form

Is the Cotswolds not in the UK anymore? Did I miss COTSWEXIT? Confused


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 20 Oct 19 at 5:35am
Clearly they have relocated to the U.K. since I made the post 

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 20 Oct 19 at 6:09am
VERY VERY basic sketch but, just showing the configuration.

Trapeze so can quickly adjust trim



-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 20 Oct 19 at 6:27am
Cotswit was a painful process, especially the years of argument as to where the boundaries actually are.

These foils look great for an amateur builder of floating boats, but a bit heavy to fly?


-------------
Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: bdu98252
Date Posted: 21 Oct 19 at 10:06am
Originally posted by tink

VERY VERY basic sketch but, just showing the configuration.

Trapeze so can quickly adjust trim


In a sailing dinghy you need the foils to resist side loading if you want to go upwind with any efficiency. In this case if the boat is flat both sides are cancelling each other out which is fine for a power boat but not for a dinghy. If you heel it to windward then the leeward foil provides the side force and the windward one provides the lift. Given that this reduces the righting moment from the crew this is not a fast look. Also this is why the RS600 foiler did not work too well in that trapezing off a boat heeled to windward is not to easy or comfortable. Back to the drawing board I think.  


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 21 Oct 19 at 5:48pm
This configuration was used on many record breaking craft from the 1950s until the recent past. The windward foil is naturally immersed more and a vertical portion on the foil tip is sometimes added. I simply presented a very simple configuration that is well proven and simple - which was my reading of the OP ‘ easier to sail platform like the Skeeter would make the boat more accessible to more 'normal' sailors‘

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 21 Oct 19 at 6:37pm
Not fully upwind but I think in illustrates my point 




-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: john80
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 7:05pm
It is on a catamaran which makes quite a lot of difference. There is a reason a moth looks the way it does.


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 7:52pm
And costs as much as it does, I am just pointing out that there are other solutions other than wands and incidence control. One of the first foiling moths used this system. Yes they went a different direction but that could have been driven by fitting the concept into the class rules rather than the system. 

-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 22 Oct 19 at 10:02pm
The Moth's ruled that foiled mast be on the centreline immediately after the first 'three point' foiling moth was developed effectively outlawing foils mounted on the wings..

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 5:30am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

The Moth's ruled that foiled mast be on the centreline immediately after the first 'three point' foiling moth was developed effectively outlawing foils mounted on the wings..
Thanks, I’d presumed that, interesting. Wonder where they would have ended up if they hadn’t done that everyone else followed their lead.

Clearly a T foil is better for out and out performance but not necessarily for a people’s foiler. 


-------------
Tink
https://tinkboats.wordpress.com/

http://proasail.blogspot.com


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 23 Oct 19 at 6:41pm
Originally posted by tink

Not fully upwind but I think in illustrates my point 


Looks more like broad reaching looking at the water and sail trim. Syz & Co (think that's the boat) got lots of photos in the sailing press for a very short time and then vanished, which probably speaks volumes.

I think the three point foiling is a nice idea if you're just looking at going in a straight lines. Suspect with the moths that even if the 'piv' foils hadn't been outlawed that ultimately they'd have moved to centreline foils as a better solution for all points of sail.


Posted By: Boatmik
Date Posted: 25 Oct 19 at 5:50am
Moths were on the edge of banning the foilers at the three pointer (tricycle) stage.

https://i0.wp.com/www.internationalmoth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2000-Burvilles-Windrush.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://i0.wp.com/www.internationalmoth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2000-Burvilles-Windrush.jpg

Too easy and throwing away hard earned boat handling skills.
http://www.internationalmoth.co.uk/archives/history/foiling-history/" rel="nofollow - http://www.internationalmoth.co.uk/archives/history/foiling-history/


It was uncertain if bifoilers would be sailable. Legend has it that the time the Australian committee was having a meeting Ian Ward had put together  a bifoiler to sail outside the club where the meet was happening ...

... and the rest as they say is (almost) history.



-------------
Storer Boat Plans


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 27 Oct 19 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Boatmik

Moths were on the edge of banning the foilers at the three pointer (tricycle) stage.

https://i0.wp.com/www.internationalmoth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2000-Burvilles-Windrush.jpg" rel="nofollow - https://i0.wp.com/www.internationalmoth.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/2000-Burvilles-Windrush.jpg

Too easy and throwing away hard earned boat handling skills.
http://www.internationalmoth.co.uk/archives/history/foiling-history/" rel="nofollow - http://www.internationalmoth.co.uk/archives/history/foiling-history/


It was uncertain if bifoilers would be sailable. Legend has it that the time the Australian committee was having a meeting Ian Ward had put together  a bifoiler to sail outside the club where the meet was happening ...

... and the rest as they say is (almost) history.



Funnily enough I was reading the http://www.storerboatplans.com/boat-design/foiling-forefront-vs-fakes/" rel="nofollow - Foilers v fakes  article on your site the other day (and perusing all the interesting boat designs).

Tink - one along your three point foiler lines here  http://foilingdinghy.com/" rel="nofollow - http://foilingdinghy.com/  - looks pretty awkward with the bow up trim and not sure 13000 euros is 'people's foiler' territory...





Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com