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Types of course

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Race Management
Forum Discription: For race officers and competiors to discuss the topic
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13346
Printed Date: 02 Jul 20 at 4:25pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Types of course
Posted By: gbr22114
Subject: Types of course
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 6:59am
Hi,
I'm probably moaning about nothing in some people's opinions, but I just wondered if anyone else shares my frustration at the courses being set by their club's ROs?
Over the past couple of years at my club there seems to have been a shift towards courses that have several beats per lap, with runs or very broad reaches in between the upwind legs. No beam reaches or similar. Frequently they manage to set courses with no gybe mark. This means that on a breezy day with the potential for some fun planing reaches, it feels like the RO is exacting his frustration at not sailing by taking the fun out of the race for everyone else.
I sail Enterprise and Laser (over 25 years racing experience), and am happiest in a stiff breeze - to me it's a kind of reward for slogging up a tough beat, to bear off around the windward mark and go off planing to the next mark as fast as the boat will go. I'm not saying a broad reach/run can't be exciting (even terrifying in certain wind/sea conditions), but courses that persistently avoid particular points of sailing is really frustrating for me. Also how satisfying is it to fly down a reach and get round a difficult gybe - or if you mess it up and get wet, you pick yourself up, laugh about it and work out how to get it right next time?
Case in point yesterday, the club ran its annual long pursuit race, and historically this involves as many marks as possible, and every point of sailing - you want something to keep a 3 hour race interesting, right? Instead we got a sideways figure of eight, beat/run/beat/run. I lasted one lap and decided I would rather stick pins in my eyes than sail that course for another 2 hours, so I went for a bit blast away from the course before going home for an ice cream.
I haven't asked the committee what they think yet, I suspect I will be wasting my breath.



Replies:
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 8:08am
At our club - a pond in the Cotswolds -  the advice to Race Officers is to try and have two beats per lap because then if the wind does shift (when it shifts!!) there is a better chance that one of the beats will still work. This can result in more runs than reaches but most race officers do include a gybe mark so that at least one of the runs is a reach plus a run if that makes sense?! I suspect that this is because we have a mix of boats including those with spinnakers and these guys ask for a reach to be included which is fair. Whilst I can understand your view on a fun reach rather than a run, the runs are a very tactical leg. I mean anyone can blast down the reach and once you are up and planing then its hard to really gain or lose on your respective handicap whereas huge gains and losses can be made on a poor run!

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H2 #115


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 9:20am
Originally posted by gbr22114

Hi,
I'm probably moaning about nothing in some people's opinions, but I just wondered if anyone else shares my frustration at the courses being set by their club's ROs?ice cream.
I haven't asked the committee what they think yet, I suspect I will be wasting my breath.


Have to agree, some of our courses end up being pants, we rotate our race officer team from within the fleet and some are better at setting courses than others, but there is at least variety even though our over riding prescription is triangle sausage, it can so often end up as fetch fetch run fetch.

Training and discussion is key and of course participation in the process.

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 10:00am
If you are setting courses using fixed marks you can only go where the marks are. Sometimes this means two short beats instead of one long one. Different if you have open water and drop inflatables.

Just trying to visualise a course with no gybes........ Confused


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 10:36am
beat,
port rounding, starboard broad reach
starboard rounding, beat
starboard rounding, port broad reach
port rounding


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 10:43am
Big smile thanks

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: gbr22114
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 10:54am
Originally posted by H2

try and have two beats per lap because then if the wind does shift (when it shifts!!) there is a better chance that one of the beats will still work. [...] the runs are a very tactical leg. I mean anyone can blast down the reach and once you are up and planing then its hard to really gain or lose on your respective handicap whereas huge gains and losses can be made on a poor run!
Appreciate that there can be good reasons for two beats in a course - yesterday they were of course both in exactly the same direction, with only about 200m between their direct lines. The course may as well have had only 2 marks IMHO.
The run of course can be tactical, particularly if tide or current is a factor. A reach can be just as tactical. Some of us can blast down the reach quicker than others, it's another test of boat handling skill. Handicaps are supposed to account for performance on all points of sailing, and as we know some classes perform better in different wind strengths, reaching angles, etc.
Originally posted by iGRF

our over riding prescription is triangle sausage
aaaargh the sausage... I hate that course Angry (I hate runs in general, probably because it's so damn hard to escape the wind shadow of boats behind)
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

If you are setting courses using fixed marks you can only go where the marks are. Sometimes this means two short beats instead of one long one. Different if you have open water and drop inflatables.Confused
We have "fixed" positions but the marks are lifted/dropped each time as required (except for three very large navigation buoys for shipping) - so there's a bit of flexibility in positioning as long as they are dropped vaguely where sailors expect them to be. Depending on wind direction a leg could be up to 1km across the estuary. *imagines a 1km planing reach* Thumbs Up

Loz


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 4:47pm
The think about runs is they give you a choice of angles, reaches are from one bouy to the next and can be processional. Then, if they're a bit tight the assys will complain (actually spinny boats generally). Runs give more opportunities than reaches.

TBF one of the best races I have sailed was at a windy Raceboard open at West Kirby. A long beat up the lake and (IIRC) 6 gybe slalom back down. Brilliant fun Tongue


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 7:37pm
I wish our courses had less reaches in....

Although I do sail an asymmetric...

How much reaching can you do before it gets boring?

How much competitive sailing can you do before it gets boring?

I bet you the latter is longer so must take priority as it can only be done in an arranged environment. Going off on some reaches can be done by your self away from others. 

Before anyone tries to argue that reaching is competitive, how many Olympic courses have significant amounts of reaching in it?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 7:50pm
I remember sitting down and carefully watching a Solo Open at our club. While there weren't that many passing moves on the reaches, they had an immense effect on the results. The fast reaching boat would clear a space behind her, and only needed to keep a loose cover on the boats behind while she went hunting for the next place gain. By contrast the slow reaching boat had a pack snapping at their heels at the start of the beat and had to defend frantically rather than think about what was ahead.

Plus of course the gybe between two reaches tends to be forced, rather than being able to pick the right moment as on a run, which has a definite sorting out effect in a breeze...

And frankly what ever the latest fad for courses is amongst the pros at the Olympics should have not the slightest influence on what makes for an amusing afternoon at Lower Whatsitford Sailing Club. The other thing is that really with things like picking courses one should listen to the back of the fleet, not the front. The tail end of the fleet is where growth will come from. If you ignore them and only listen to what the top ten want, before long you'll only have the top ten left.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 9:29pm
3 fetches and 2 runs was my least favourite recent course, but giant triangles with 2 broad reaches, interspersed with sausage runs are only made worse by taking the broad reaches away and just leaving the sausage. Just tedious in the extreme. At least the fetches and runs was a mistake.

I want a little excitement to go along with my tactics.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 9:58pm
This just goes to reinforce what a thankless task RO can be Ouch and I've just volunteered for an extra Wednesday night duty in July (my first as RO at L&LSC).

Whatever you do you'll leave somebody dissatisfied, W/L course? The assy's will be delighted but the Solos and Enterprises will be baying for blood, all beats and reaches you'll have a posse of 400's waiting behind the boat shed for you........ You just can't win.......


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: gbr22114
Date Posted: 20 Jun 19 at 9:26am
Originally posted by Rupert

3 fetches and 2 runs was my least favourite recent course, but giant triangles with 2 broad reaches, interspersed with sausage runs are only made worse by taking the broad reaches away and just leaving the sausage. Just tedious in the extreme. At least the fetches and runs was a mistake.
I want a little excitement to go along with my tactics.
Amen to that  Smile


Posted By: gbr22114
Date Posted: 20 Jun 19 at 9:31am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

This just goes to reinforce what a thankless task RO can be Ouch and I've just volunteered for an extra Wednesday night duty in July (my first as RO at L&LSC).

Whatever you do you'll leave somebody dissatisfied, W/L course? The assy's will be delighted but the Solos and Enterprises will be baying for blood, all beats and reaches you'll have a posse of 400's waiting behind the boat shed for you........ You just can't win.......
Obviously I need to pay more attention to how asymmetrics perform on different legs (aside from constantly taking my wind) - I don't understand why they wouldn't do reaching well.

RO is indeed a tricky job, glad I only have to do it once this season Tongue


Posted By: gbr22114
Date Posted: 20 Jun 19 at 9:38am
Originally posted by JimC

frankly what ever the latest fad for courses is amongst the pros at the Olympics should have not the slightest influence on what makes for an amusing afternoon at Lower Whatsitford Sailing Club. The other thing is that really with things like picking courses one should listen to the back of the fleet, not the front. The tail end of the fleet is where growth will come from. If you ignore them and only listen to what the top ten want, before long you'll only have the top ten left.
I think you hit the nail right there - broad appeal is key, and a bit of fun is a huge part of it for lots of people. I used to be more at the competitive end of attitudes, but eventually realised that I was getting too annoyed at stuff (either other sailors or my own mistakes), and that I wasn't enjoying my hobby properly. These days I want to sail for enjoyment and will quite happily quit a race if it isn't pushing any buttons for whatever reason - though of course I understand that others enjoy what I find boring and vice versa.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 20 Jun 19 at 9:56am
Originally posted by gbr22114

Obviously I need to pay more attention to how asymmetrics perform on different legs (aside from constantly taking my wind) - I don't understand why they wouldn't do reaching well.


Its complicated between different classes, but very high performance boats (asymmettric or otherwise) only sail at one downwind angle in any given wind strength, which gives them both the best vmg and greatest speed thro' the water. So if the reach is tighter than the magic angle then they'll either have to go high and hoist late, or else struggle to make the mark (usually very slow). If on the other hand its broader than the magic angle then they'll have to gybe down to the mark just as if it were a run. But on a run they are hitting max speed and can pick their moment to gybe etc, whilst the slower boats are stuck bobbling down on the slowest point of sailing.

When you get to slower asymmettrics esp in light winds, where max vmg and max speed do not coincide, then its a bit more complicated.

There's nothing different about the physics between pole kite and asymmetric kite boats, its just that most pole kite rigs are so inefficient with short poles and small balloon shaped sails that they don't really have a magic angle to the extent something like a 49er does.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 20 Jun 19 at 10:11am
Also, when you are maxed out with an assy you have to bear away as they are impossible to depower.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Laser3
Date Posted: 20 Aug 19 at 10:01pm
Get your RO to look at these

http://setcourses.com/other.html" rel="nofollow - http://setcourses.com/other.html



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