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Star Sailors League December 2018

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13219
Printed Date: 25 May 19 at 8:17pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Star Sailors League December 2018
Posted By: mozzy
Subject: Star Sailors League December 2018
Date Posted: 22 Nov 18 at 1:22pm
Seemed a pretty popular event last year, and it's back again.

Some great names in the line up, it will be super interesting to see who comes out on top. A shame not to see Goodison back and no Saxton.

Iain Percy (GBR) - Anders Ekström (SWE)
Šime Fantela (CRO) - Antonio Arapovic (CRO)
Robert Scheidt (BRA) - Henry Boenig (BRA)
Freddy Lööf (SWE) - Edoardo Natucci (ITA)
Mateusz Kusznierewicz (POL) - Dominik Zycki (POL)
Max Salminen (SWE) - Johan Tillander (SWE)
Paul Cayard (USA) - Arthur Lopes (BRA)
Diego Negri (ITA) - Frithjof Kleen (GER)
Pavlos Kontides (CYP) - Markus Koy (GER)
Tonci Stipanovic (CRO) - Frederico Melo (POR)
Gerogy Shayduko (RUS) - Vitalii Kushnir (UKR)
Lars Grael (BRA) - Samuel Gonçalves (BRA)
Xavier Rohart (FRA) - Pierre-Alexis Ponsot (FRA)
Jorge Zarif (BRA) - Pedro Trouche (BRA)
Ruggero Tita (ITA) - Enrico Voltolini (ITA)
Zsombor Berecz (HUN) - Michael Maier (CZE)
Kevin Peponnet (FRA) - Mark Strube (USA)
Hamish Pepper (NZL) - Steve Mitchell (GBR)
Francesco Bruni (ITA) - Nando Colaninno (ITA)
Mark Mendelblatt (USA) - Brian Fatih (USA)
Eivind Melleby (NOR) - Joshua Revkin (USA)
Geroge Szabo (USA) - Roger Cheer (CAN)
Augie Diaz (USA) - Bruno Prada (BRA)
Ondrej Teplý (CZE) - Antonis Tsotras (GRE)
Guido Gallinaro (ITA) - Kilian Weise (GER)

Preview piece here:
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/212415/25-of-the-worlds-best-line-up-for-SSL-Finals" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/212415/25-of-the-worlds-best-line-up-for-SSL-Finals

http://finals.starsailors.com/" rel="nofollow - Event website
https://www.facebook.com/StarSailorsLeague" rel="nofollow - Facebook Page

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCslTs2hZG7d08VYH_mLGSUg" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel for streaming

[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JcMK9lFayE[/TUBE]






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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144



Replies:
Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 22 Nov 18 at 7:27pm
I wonder what the budget is for this event?


Posted By: salmon80
Date Posted: 22 Nov 18 at 10:08pm
Originally posted by Old Timer

I wonder what the budget is for this event?


Lets be honest its all about one persons money. This group of sailors would race optimists around the cans on a gravel pit near oxford if they got paid to do it.

Its just one man trying to show the world it was nuts to axe the star from the Olympics because 'look how popular it it'


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 22 Nov 18 at 10:59pm
Originally posted by salmon80

Originally posted by Old Timer

I wonder what the budget is for this event?


Lets be honest its all about one persons money. This group of sailors would race optimists around the cans on a gravel pit near oxford if they got paid to do it.

Its just one man trying to show the world it was nuts to axe the star from the Olympics because 'look how popular it it'

Yeah, I know all that but fair play to him for putting on the show. 

I just wonder how much the event budget is, must be some serious dough. 


Posted By: ian.r.mcdonald
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 7:57am
its a great event and I enjoyed watching the last one. Wouldnt it be even better without the rowing downwind?


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:11am
When you look at that list of sailors it shows what the Olympics is missing.

When you then add the list of (probably soon to be ex) Finn sailors its even more amazing that these guys can no longer compete (unless their fancy taking their chances in an overnight potter with the mrs)

The SSL league slightly tweeked (not a final one race winner takes all perhaps) would be great in the Olympics.



Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:24am
Spot on Rich (or alternatively keep the Finn...)

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Finn GBR88 Gruffalo, Europe 185, Europe 252 Fizzer
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cameron-Tweedle-Sailing/816713278339694" rel="nofollow - Cameron Tweedle Sailing (Facebook)


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:48am
If this (effective) weight restriction had been applied to rowing neither Redgrave, Pinsent, Cracknell etc would have been able to compete


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:56am
On the other hand, a recent article in Sail-World NZ analysed the weight of Olympic and America's Cup competitors and showed that the AC is at least as unfair to light and medium-weight men as the Olympics without the Finn will be to the heavyweights. A bunch of other high-profile classes are also dominated by heavy sailors.

So if fairness and equity are the important issues, how can the heavyweight sailors complain about bias against them in the Games and yet be happy when there is bias towards them in other top line events? And, as noted before, the Finn class seems to have been quite happy to ignore the issue of equity towards light sailors for the 40 or so years when the Olympic dinghies favoured bigger blokes.

In the same vein, it seems a bit hard to complain about young Finnsters losing out on their Olympic dream when the Finn was apparently happy to sit by and watch Star, Yngling, Soling and windsurfer sailors lose their Olympic hopes. Of course, you can say the same thing about cat sailors - they complained long and loud about losing their spot in the Games but didn't seem to care when other disciplines got chucked.


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:58am
Originally posted by rich96

If this (effective) weight restriction had been applied to rowing neither Redgrave, Pinsent, Cracknell etc would have been able to compete

Yes, but many, many lightweight rowers have been unable to compete in the Games because the lightweight division is under-represented and in fact did not exist for about 100 years. So why is it wrong to throw out the heavyweights, but okay to ignore the lightweights?

Surely either there should be fairness for all weights, or people should not complain when their weight category is not catered for. To complain when one's own weight is not catered for but to be silent when other people are not catered for doesn't seem to be equitable or consistent.


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 9:12am
Spot on Chris, The Finn lobby are getting boring now. 


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 9:26am
*getting* ??


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 10:01am
Originally posted by JimC

*getting* ??


Cheap

It may be boring to you but perhaps when the Olympic sailing finally destroys itself and loses its place at the games that would be really boring


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 10:29am
Perhaps aggressive lobbying based on blatant self interest is part of the problem, not part of the solution.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 10:47am
Maybe ?

At the end of the day those that have sailed/do sail the boat will   support it and some of the whose haven't wont.

Its a unique class and gets you hooked.

The class itself will continue to flourish regardless I'm sure



Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Chris 249

On the other hand, a recent article in Sail-World NZ analysed the weight of Olympic and America's Cup competitors and showed that the AC is at least as unfair to light and medium-weight men as the Olympics without the Finn will be to the heavyweights. A bunch of other high-profile classes are also dominated by heavy sailors.
So if fairness and equity are the important issues, how can the heavyweight sailors complain about bias against them in the Games and yet be happy when there is bias towards them in other top line events? And, as noted before, the Finn class seems to have been quite happy to ignore the issue of equity towards light sailors for the 40 or so years when the Olympic dinghies favoured bigger blokes.
.


Yes - but now there not a single Olympic option for the bigger guys


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 10:51am
Originally posted by Chris 249


Originally posted by rich96

If this (effective) weight restriction had been applied to rowing neither Redgrave, Pinsent, Cracknell etc would have been able to compete

Yes, but many, many lightweight rowers have been unable to compete in the Games because the lightweight division is under-represented and in fact did not exist for about 100 years. So why is it wrong to throw out the heavyweights, but okay to ignore the lightweights?
Surely either there should be fairness for all weights, or people should not complain when their weight category is not catered for. To complain when one's own weight is not catered for but to be silent when other people are not catered for doesn't seem to be equitable or consistent.


You are correct when you say 'throw out' the heavyweights. They cannot sail at the Olympics now

That has not happened to lightweights in rowing or sailing ?


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 11:00am
I imagine the offshore leadmine will suit the heavyweights just fine. Such boats tend to want as much weight on the rail as possible.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 11:11am
Rich, the lightweights were disadvantaged in rowing and sailing for many years, and the heavyweights don't seem to have protested - just as they don't seem to protest when other major events, like the America's Cup, give less chance to the lightweights.

I'm not saying that heavyweights shouldn't be in the Games, just that it seems inconsistent to ignore the weight fairness issue for decades and across disciplines when the lightweights were disadvantages, and then to raise a hue and cry about fairness only when the heavies are disadvantaged. 

Personally I'd like to see people of all athletic physiques have a chance to sail at top level, but if the heavies have been benefiting from an unfair situation for many years it appears very inconsistent for them to demand equity only when it suits them.


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 11:27am
Whilst there may not be specific lightweight single-handed options for females (and v lightweight males) there ARE options within Olympic Sailing for these body types (49er, FX, 470, Nacra).
There is no possibility of competitive Olympic Sailing for 90Kg+ any more.

I've not campaigned to keep the Finn, instead fought for some form of representation for the big athletes.
Plenty of us jumped up and down in protest when Windsurfing got binned. Plenty of us have campaigned for Gender Parity.

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Finn GBR88 Gruffalo, Europe 185, Europe 252 Fizzer
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Cameron-Tweedle-Sailing/816713278339694" rel="nofollow - Cameron Tweedle Sailing (Facebook)


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 11:54am
Originally posted by Chris 249

On the other hand, a recent article in Sail-World NZ analysed the weight of Olympic and America's Cup competitors and showed that the AC is at least as unfair to light and medium-weight men as the Olympics without the Finn will be to the heavyweights. A bunch of other high-profile classes are also dominated by heavy sailors.
So if fairness and equity are the important issues, how can the heavyweight sailors complain about bias against them in the Games and yet be happy when there is bias towards them in other top line events? And, as noted before, the Finn class seems to have been quite happy to ignore the issue of equity towards light sailors for the 40 or so years when the Olympic dinghies favoured bigger blokes.
In the same vein, it seems a bit hard to complain about young Finnsters losing out on their Olympic dream when the Finn was apparently happy to sit by and watch Star, Yngling, Soling and windsurfer sailors lose their Olympic hopes. Of course, you can say the same thing about cat sailors - they complained long and loud about losing their spot in the Games but didn't seem to care when other disciplines got chucked.


What was the basis of the analysis? The characteristics of the sailors or the characteristics of the ac boats? Because it’s just possible that the ‘type’ was partially defined by the fact that many of the most successful sailors involved came out of Finns and, for the older ones Stars. Certainly cycling as a hydraulic power input ought to have changed the physiology.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 12:26pm
Star sailors league last year very good, video coverage probably best I have ever seen.
Extensive chat on youtube, not many negative comments.
I will watch it agzin this year, looking forward to it, almost up there with 6 Nations for me.


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by sargesail

Originally posted by Chris 249

On the other hand, a recent article in Sail-World NZ analysed the weight of Olympic and America's Cup competitors and showed that the AC is at least as unfair to light and medium-weight men as the Olympics without the Finn will be to the heavyweights. A bunch of other high-profile classes are also dominated by heavy sailors.
So if fairness and equity are the important issues, how can the heavyweight sailors complain about bias against them in the Games and yet be happy when there is bias towards them in other top line events? And, as noted before, the Finn class seems to have been quite happy to ignore the issue of equity towards light sailors for the 40 or so years when the Olympic dinghies favoured bigger blokes.
In the same vein, it seems a bit hard to complain about young Finnsters losing out on their Olympic dream when the Finn was apparently happy to sit by and watch Star, Yngling, Soling and windsurfer sailors lose their Olympic hopes. Of course, you can say the same thing about cat sailors - they complained long and loud about losing their spot in the Games but didn't seem to care when other disciplines got chucked.


What was the basis of the analysis? The characteristics of the sailors or the characteristics of the ac boats? Because it’s just possible that the ‘type’ was partially defined by the fact that many of the most successful sailors involved came out of Finns and, for the older ones Stars. Certainly cycling as a hydraulic power input ought to have changed the physiology.


Strangely lots of the AC sailors in Bermuda were shedding weight and even the big'uns looked lean - They were desperate to get foiling faster than the rivals.

Certainly some of the grinders/cyclors were meaty but not vast.

Chris & Jim C are entitled to their opinion o course but NOT one serious sailor that I have spoken to has said that dumping the Finn is a good idea.

The offshore debacle will either never happen or be dumped after 2014. In all reality which serious sailor is going to risk many years of hard work on the off chance that they are successful in some mickey mouse 'offshore' one off race ?

Anyway - the Stars are still looking good and good luck to them.






Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 12:45pm
I really like the finn sailing. And I'd like a spot for larger blokes in the games, it's a great spectacle. Ideally, I'd rather windsurfing or kites weren't there. 
What I didn't like was the Finn lobby (wasn't just them) signing up for a event that doesn't exist in the sport and ultimately the athletes commission judged unworkable. It was a display of how ridiculous the whole process and those involved had become. 

Fair play to the Stars, and in particular the backer of this event. If you believe the game you're playing is worthwhile, you won't stop because it's not in the games. Ultimately, as consumers if we think these are the boats that are important, we should continue to watch and follow events like the SSL and be thankful a wealthy backer has plugged the gap to allow us to continue to support the sailing we enjoy watching. 

Buy enough of the stuff their sponsors sell and these boats will stay alive as pro events. Who knows, in a few years once the fashions has changed perhaps there will be a route back in to the games, if by that point it's even desirable for the class. 


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by rich96

NOT one serious sailor that I have spoken to has said that dumping the Finn is a good idea.
I haven't spoken to anyone that wanted the Finn dropped either. But I've also not spoken to one sailor who thought the mixed single hander was a good idea either.

Originally posted by rich96

The offshore debacle will either never happen or be dumped after 2014. In all reality which serious sailor is going to risk many years of hard work on the off chance that they are successful in some mickey mouse 'offshore' one off race ?
The thing is, unlike some of the other events introduced, or that have been attempted to be introduced, offshore sailing already has serious pro-sailors working hard at it. It's not some invented thing that nation bodies will have to go out and press gang people to take up. It's an existing and quite huge part of the sport with athletes that never before have been able to show their qualities on this stage (logistical event issues aside).


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 1:38pm
The money isn't just going on the SSL event itself - apparently Star class training centres are being bankrolled specifically to get invitees from other classes up to speed.

The 'we're the best classes - look at all our famous names' is a bit circular. For a post-olympics sailing career the only route is really AC/Volvo/big boat racing, and  manhandling big bits of machinery around a course preselects for very big blokes (probably doesn't hurt to be part of an old boys network either).


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by mozzy


Originally posted by rich96

NOT one serious sailor that I have spoken to has said that dumping the Finn is a good idea.
I haven't spoken to anyone that wanted the Finn dropped either. But I've also not spoken to one sailor who thought the mixed single hander was a good idea either.
Originally posted by rich96

The offshore debacle will either never happen or be dumped after 2014. In all reality which serious sailor is going to risk many years of hard work on the off chance that they are successful in some mickey mouse 'offshore' one off race ?

The thing is, unlike some of the other events introduced, or that have been attempted to be introduced, offshore sailing already has serious pro-sailors working hard at it. It's not some invented thing that nation bodies will have to go out and press gang people to take up. It's an existing and quite huge part of the sport with athletes that never before have been able to show their qualities on this stage (logistical event issues aside).


Yes - in a sensible series etc - not a one off race !.

'Offshore' sailing is way too unpredictable for that.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 4:06pm
Most of the really high profile offshore racing is one off races, Fastnet, Round the Island, Vendee Globe etc.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 4:43pm
In fact, the only high profile offshore racing that has multiple legs individually scored to even out large time differences is the Volvo?


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 5:17pm
Comparing the Fastnet or the Round The Island racew with Olympics is not fair at all

Most off those competitors are weekend sailors and handicap events .Nothing like an Olympics.

Also - comparing the Vendee with the Olympics is also ridiculous - multi multi millions of £s and an event sailed over a few months ?

Come on

A far better comparison would be the Figaro - is this a one race event ?

Nothing more to say on this - time will tell what a success it is



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 5:47pm
Theirs one thing for certain this will become an arms race, the French aren't going to lose this medal if they have to break the Bank, completely outside Olympic ethos.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 7:37pm
The irony of a Brit complaining about other nations spending money to win medals wouldn’t be lost on the French.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:01pm
Would the French get irony


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:44pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Whilst there may not be specific lightweight single-handed options for females (and v lightweight males) there ARE options within Olympic Sailing for these body types (49er, FX, 470, Nacra).
There is no possibility of competitive Olympic Sailing for 90Kg+ any more.

I've not campaigned to keep the Finn, instead fought for some form of representation for the big athletes.
Plenty of us jumped up and down in protest when Windsurfing got binned. Plenty of us have campaigned for Gender Parity.

And good on you and all the other individual Finn sailors who campaigned for gender and weight parity - it was good and far-sighted of you to do so. The class as a whole, though, appears to have been silent on the issue for many decades and only taken it up recently as a matter of expediency.

As I noted earlier, I reckon the Finn SHOULD still be in the Games, to be fair to the big guys - but by the same token we should be trying to ensure that there are similar options for all body types in major events.

It's a strange thing, but sports seem to be almost totally split on the issue of whether to cater for different body types. On the one hand you get events like weight lifting that always seem to opt for weight classifications, on the other hand you get sports like basketball where at top level most people need not apply no matter how talented and dedicated they are. Perhaps we need WS to come up with a philosophy and a plan about ensuring fairness to sailors of all body types rather than the current mash-up.

By the way as a disclaimer, I'm medium/light and short and happy with it as it's great for a jack of all trades like me. It also means that I often sail classes in which I'm on the ends of the weight range (ie I'm heavy for a Radial but light for a standard Laser) so I can get some idea of what it feels like to be a heavy!


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 8:55pm
Why couldn’t a 90kg+ sailor be competing the offshore event?


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Chris 249


Perhaps we need WS to come up with a philosophy and a plan about ensuring fairness to sailors of all body types rather than the current mash-up.]

I think this is near the mark. WS need to be clear about whether they want to split the sport by body weight, by craft type (yacht, skiff, foiler, cat etc), by format (fleet, team, match race etc) or some other categorisation. There has been no consistency on this over the years, but it is at the heart of how Olympic events (and consequently classes) should be selected.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 23 Nov 18 at 9:06pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Theirs one thing for certain this will become an arms race, the French aren't going to lose this medal if they have to break the Bank, completely outside Olympic ethos.

Confused...... that's odd coming from a nation than (like mine) has a huge Olympic budget.

While many people are forecasting a French victory in the offshore boat, maybe their efforts will be as successful as they were in windsurfers (where they missed out on medals at a time when they dominated the Div 2/Lechner class), in the early days of the 470 (a class they created and dominated numerically, but where they couldn't get a medal for eons) and as successful as the Aussies were in the early days of the 49ers. We had one-eyed sailing journalists who were proclaiming that the arrival of the skiff in the Games meant that we could count on dominating the class for at least one or two Games - in fact we didn't get any medal for three Olympics and the medals went to those ancient skiff strongholds of Finland, Ukraine, Spain and Denmark!


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 29 Nov 18 at 11:03pm
Should be a pretty decent commentary line up... often makes or breaks these things

%20" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/212635/Americas-Cup-and-Olympic-medallists-to-commentate

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RS800 1144


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 6:13pm
Two good races so far after losing yesterday. 

For those who don't go to the homepage...

[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzEYw1TzKK0[/TUBE]




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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 6:17pm
What’s happened to Iain Percy?


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 6:19pm
Technical issues apparently... not sure what that means...

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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 6:28pm
It’s a long way to go to forget your bung!


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 9:59pm
That got pretty breezy very quickly! Hopefully everyone can get out for tomorrow...



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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 10:11pm
Wow, is that mast bend on Swedish boat or image distortion ?



Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 10:13pm
Mast bend, I think. Mast bend on the other boat more dramatic...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 10:16pm
The facebook page has the full set. No lens distortion, just crazy shots of mast bend!

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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 10:21pm
To look at 'Stars' you wouldn't think they were designed a century ago.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Dec 18 at 10:23pm
More like two......

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 06 Dec 18 at 4:16pm
Looks like Stevie M in the front.
Must have been hiking too hard.

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Andy Mck


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 06 Dec 18 at 4:22pm
Yup, was Mitchell in the front. 

Today's racing is up. Four races again. 
 

[TUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EBC6DS-HGk[/TUBE]


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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Dec 18 at 7:30pm
They appear to be lifting boom to go over top of mark, keeping it close, presumably booms that clipped had to do a penalty ?


Posted By: By The Lee
Date Posted: 06 Dec 18 at 8:39pm
Really top racing great boats, top sailors and excellent courage huge respect for young Guido what a legend a star of the future


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 12:10pm
Laser design issues debated on a regular basis, what design issues has 'Star' got ?


Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 1:54pm
None

Its a fantastic boat and been highly developed over the years.

The tiny section mast needs to be carefully looked after in breeze though !

A proper thoroughbred


Posted By: DiscoBall
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 2:00pm
Originally posted by 423zero

Laser design issues debated on a regular basis, what design issues has 'Star' got ?
 

Well you've got bendy/falling down masts for a start...breaking your first is AFAIK meant to be something of a rite of passage in the class Smile

Related to that is the gigantic sail area and a low, low boom..

Then you've got a stubby keel and swept back rudder (seem familiar?). I  how much chine is immersed is a big part of reducing leeway due to the small keel.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 4:59pm
Well, its an outdated rig, an outdated hull shape, a silly keel, no kite and the bizarre downwind rock and roll, but really apart from the rig, the hull, the foils and the way they are sailed there's nothing much wrong with them.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 5:21pm
Iain Percy racing today, at last!

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https://www.youtube.com/user/656mozzy/" rel="nofollow - YouTube Channel
RS800 1144


Posted By: Old Timer
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by JimC

Well, its an outdated rig, an outdated hull shape, a silly keel, no kite and the bizarre downwind rock and roll, but really apart from the rig, the hull, the foils and the way they are sailed there's nothing much wrong with them.

Never understood why people get misty eyed over the Star for all the above reasons ...


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 5:34pm
"Outdated" only really applies to a newly designed boat, I dare say when 'Star' was first designed it was cutting-edge.


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 5:54pm
So was the wheel... And that has developed some.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 5:59pm
So... Percy wasn't there becuase he's going to be heading up the Malta AC challenge! rumours rumours

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 6:00pm
Wheel moved on no longer round


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 6:23pm
top interview with percy... he's got a good view on the relevance of the star

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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 6:43pm
Same relevancy has other old designs, people like the look of them and the way they sail.
Mozzy,
Have you found out about Percy, checked all sailing forums and google can't find anything ?


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 6:53pm
Just what the commentators said. He had to fly out for discussion about Malta. There were rumours previously that the Sardinia challenge (which turn in to Malta Challenge) would involve ex Artemis personnel. 

Also, loads of people were asking on the SSL chat where he was and there was never a satisfactory response, which made it sound as if something was happening behind the scenes. 

Then in his interview with Shirley he referred to himself as an AC team manager (and didn't seem past tense)


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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 8:46pm
Originally posted by rich96

None

Its a fantastic boat and been highly developed over the years.

The tiny section mast needs to be carefully looked after in breeze though !

A proper thoroughbred

None? As others have said, far from it.

Massively over-canvassed for a breeze upwind, well under-canvassed downwind in light airs (and that's from world champ Paul Elvstrom);
Extremely low boom;
Needs a very heavy crew (and as I understand it, one who is not too tall despite being heavy);
Even with careful looking after, has been susceptible to mast breakage for 80 years; when I was looking at getting one I was told to expect to break two or three masts during the learning process, and I was used to singlehanding an ancient half tonner which had a similar style of rig; 
Slams in chop;
Did, and may still, break booms downwind;
Lots of expensive gear for unremarkable speed.
Unusual rig that makes it hard to apply techniques to other classes (how many non spinnaker keelboats are there?)
Initially designed not as a thoroughbred, but as one of the many cheap little local club one designs that existed around Long Island Sound.

That list isn't actually meant to denigrate the boat, but if people are going to apply the same level of criticism that is applied to the Laser (as in the question you responded to) to other boats then they will almost all cop criticism.



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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 8:58pm
I'm a bit embarrassed that even after owning a boat with runners, I didn't realise how often the Star guys played theirs. It looks as if the skippers are actually locking off the mainsails and playing the runners gust by gust - is that right? 

I'm loving the SSL; so nice to see some televised racing that has boats that 90X% of sailors can relate to, and it must be the hottest collection of talent afloat.


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 9:29pm
Missed an appointment today watching start of first race today and debating wether black flag would be used, then got interested once they started LOL


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 9:37pm
Think they play runners and checks loads.
Yes proper boats being sailed on proper courses by decent sailors. Decent long shots rather than chopping 3seconds here 3 seconds there.

To be honest in that location with that quality camerawork and coverage, most olympic classes would be as interesting, even youth classes. Oppies and toppers.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

To be honest in that location with that quality camerawork and coverage, most olympic classes would be as interesting, even youth classes. Oppies and toppers.

I think that may be the significant point. I'm enjoying watching it too.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 10:05pm
I think the interviews and background info they have on sailors is fantastic. The sailing world cup this year has been pretty good, but often the commentators don't have enough background info to make it really engaging despite decent camera work and analytics. 

The pre-race VTs and between races is super. The interview with Percy was probably the highlight of the broadcast. 

What it shows is how little the boat really matters. I love the variety of boats we have in the sport, but there is nothing wrong with slower boats for TV. 

I don't think it's getting the views it deserves. However, I notice the views are up on last year significantly (by the next morning each live stream has had 10k, last years round robin only have 2k views to date). The super Saturday last year got many more views, so I wouldn't be surprised if they see some significant viewership tomorrow. 


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 10:15pm
Looked at these figures last year, not sure how they are counted ? When first race was starting today it stated 349 viewers.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 07 Dec 18 at 10:25pm
Well, there's three streams, Facebook, WS Youtube Channel and SSL YT Channel. 

Not sure about facebook, but WS has about 500 watching live at any one time, and SSL has about 1k. When the live stream finishes it shows total viewer, and that's been like 2k for the WS stream and 5k for SSL. Then, I think half the world will be watching this over our night, so they clock up a lot of views over night. Last nights SSL stream now has 11k and WS stream 4k. 

Last years final only has 11k to date, and the round robin 4k for each date. So basically, they've already got higher viewership for the round robin, and might get 3 or 4 x as many views for the finals this as last year. 


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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 08 Dec 18 at 6:05am
 
What it shows is how little the boat really matters. I love the variety of boats we have in the sport, but there is nothing wrong with slower boats for TV. 


The Star is not really slow - used to have a PY similar to a 505 IIRC



Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 08 Dec 18 at 6:09am
Originally posted by Chris 249






Originally posted by rich96

None

Its a fantastic boat and been highly developed over the years.

The tiny section mast needs to be carefully looked after in breeze though !

A proper thoroughbred

None? As others have said, far from it.
Massively over-canvassed for a breeze upwind, well under-canvassed downwind in light airs (and that's from world champ Paul Elvstrom);
Extremely low boom;
Needs a very heavy crew (and as I understand it, one who is not too tall despite being heavy);
Even with careful looking after, has been susceptible to mast breakage for 80 years; when I was looking at getting one I was told to expect to break two or three masts during the learning process, and I was used to singlehanding an ancient half tonner which had a similar style of rig; 
Slams in chop;
Did, and may still, break booms downwind;
Lots of expensive gear for unremarkable speed.
Unusual rig that makes it hard to apply techniques to other classes (how many non spinnaker keelboats are there?)
Initially designed not as a thoroughbred, but as one of the many cheap little local club one designs that existed around Long Island Sound.


With all these 'issues' its astonishing that it has never been replaced/superceded by a modern two man keelboat ?

There's still nothing similar

If your half tonner had a similar rig to a Star that would be amazing - have you seen the diameter of a Star mast ?


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Dec 18 at 8:53am
You appear to have missed the part where I wrote quite clearly "That list isn't actually meant to denigrate the boat, but if people are going to apply the same level of criticism that is applied to the Laser to other boats then they will almost all cop criticism." (emphasis added). 

 I was more responding to 432's reference to Laser design issues by noting that every boat has its own design issues and the Star is no exception. Yes, it does have design issues - but as you say it still has plenty of appeal so it can be seen as an example that our sport could be less critical of "design issues" in boats and see the big classes in a more positive and less design-centred light. 

Personally I'd reckon it would be a good thing if we were less worried about design issues in ODs and concentrated more on ensuring the health of the very few classes of wide appeal, which include the Star. The design obsession in similar-sized boats at the moment has seen the launch of an alphabet soup of 7m sportsboats, each competing for market share in a way that seems rather destructive.

Yes, I have seen the diameter of a Star mast. I didn't say my half has an "identical" rig to a Star. My half has an Etchells section (very light for a half) but the point was that like the Star, making a mistake on a runner could cost you the whole stick and despite the fact that (like many people who did IOR racing) I was used to such rigs, I was told to expect to break masts during the learning process if I got a Star.


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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Dec 18 at 10:18am
Chris249,
I got where you were coming from, guessed about the mast, never seen bend like it.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Dec 18 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by rich96

 
What it shows is how little the boat really matters. I love the variety of boats we have in the sport, but there is nothing wrong with slower boats for TV. 


The Star is not really slow - used to have a PY similar to a 505 IIRC



Are they that quick? Commentators said five knots upwind and ten downwind... doesnt sound that quick... but the tacking and gybing angles look small so VMG is prob pretty good...

But... I was really comparing to recent streamed world series type events like AC, Extreme Saiking Series, World Match Racing Tour. Plus the new additions to the Olympics of kites and foiling Nacra.

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Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Dec 18 at 3:50pm
Finals https://youtu.be/YIz_WIfHTfM" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/YIz_WIfHTfM

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RS800 1144


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 09 Dec 18 at 10:09am
Highlights of the final day, the full replay can be found on the SSL an WS channel too. 

What do people think about the knockout format?

[TUBE]https://youtu.be/hoiL03nd080[/TUBE]


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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Dec 18 at 4:26pm
Brilliant series again, watching the techniques of the different sailors was informative, leg 3 of 4 Zafir appeared to turn down the face of the waves which were at slight angle to lay line, other 3 sailors just went straight.



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