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Double points race tie brake

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13207
Printed Date: 19 Jun 19 at 10:11am
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Topic: Double points race tie brake
Posted By: mozzy
Subject: Double points race tie brake
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 9:53am
One race in a series is a double pointer, no discard. 

From the SI's:
17.2.3 When all three races have been completed on Sunday, a boatís score will be the total of her best two race scores on Sunday and double her score from the pursuit race.

From RRS Appendix A:
A8.1 If there is a series-score tie between two or more boats, each boatís 
race scores shall be listed in order of best to worst, and at the first 
point(s) where there is a difference the tie shall be broken in favour 
of the boat(s) with the best score(s). No excluded scores shall be 
used.

If two boats are tied on points, how is the pursuit race treated in the count-back? Does a 1st place in pursuit double up to be two 1st? Or does winning the pursuit count a second place? Or does it count as one 1st place? 


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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:10am
Sounds as if they need to write their own tiebreak rule. On the face of it the appendix says put the scores in order not the places... So a second in the other races is the same as a win in the last. What do the SIs for the Olympics say about ties?


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:21am
Unless the SIs say otherwise, what matters so far as A8.1 is concerned is race scores, not race positions. The boat that wins the pursuit race has a score of 2 points for that race (i.e. equivalent to second place in any other race so far as A8.1 is concerned).

I appreciate that this may not produce the result that you would expect (or want), but unless the SIs say otherwise that is how it is.



Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:47am
I checked the Rio SIs. they did indeed have a special rule. Ties were decided on the medal race positions only for boats in the medal race, and on standard tiebreak excluding the medal race for the others, and boats that tied in the medal race.

All tiebreaks are arbitary by their nature, its hard to say one is wrong or right. I agree with GML about how the SI and RRS 8.1 appear to work together.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:59am
The medal race format has an SI which breaks ties by the medal race position. So no need for count-back unless there is a dead heat finish in the medal race between two boats which are also on equal points overall. 

This was for RS EoS. 

I think the SI's should have been more explicit. It seems they thought about how the pursuits should count in terms of points, but not how it would work in terms of breaking ties.

It's pretty clear that the idea is that pursuit counts double, because it's a 2 hour race taking a whole race day, whereas the three other races are 30-40 minutes. So, if it counts double, shouldn't it count as two race wins in terms of count-back? 

I'm not sure how they decided to do it. There were two fleets with the same tiebreak and the prize-giving gave the results opposite in each fleet. 

Odd situation. But interesting! I guess it's good we all had such close racing!




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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 11:07am
Originally posted by mozzy

So, if it counts double, shouldn't it count as two race wins in terms of count-back?

You can argue it both ways. You can also argue that its overemphasised because it counts double, so making the other races count more in a tie break redresses the balance a bit in favour of consistency. Ultimately all tie breaks are arbitary, and serve mainly to enable the organisers to order the right glassware!


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 11:20am
Yeah, swings and round-a-bouts. 

In our case we were only tied on points because of the double value of the pursuit. Taking raw positions alone we should have been a point behind. So it seems to add a lot of emphasis on the pursuit so count it double for the points total and count it as two race win for count-back. On the other hand it was a full days sailing and in duration was as long as the three Sunday races combined. 

The event has been running in this format for a few years, this is the first time they've had a tie-break, and it happens for 1st place in two fleets! 

Whats odd was that they broke the tie in the other way for the RS200s.


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Posted By: Fatboi
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 1:27pm
Just get over it and have less points next time Thumbs Up


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 1:57pm
but, but, but... it hurts so much Cry

In truth we never thought we won... but it was sorta funny as I was chatting the RS200 boys speculating about the scoring before the prize-giving and came to conclusion that they won and we came 2nd (in respective fleets)... only for us both to come 2nd in a complete contravention of logic! 

Maybe they flipped a coin in the race box?




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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:03pm
Well, if they've scored the tie break differently for two classes then you'd think one of them must be wrong... A scoring error should always be corrected, there's no time limit as there is with a protest or redress hearing. (RRS 90.3).

Are the results on line somewhere? Rutland's web site appears to be sick.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:16pm
Mozzy,

The 200s were in error, which is being corrected. The results arenít up yet because they are being reworked in a publishable format.

If you have another look at the SIs youíll see that at 17.2.1 the score from the pursuit race will correspond to the position within that class only.

So as you say your score was 1. Which takes you to an equal number of firsts and thus to the next tie break which is dealt with in the normal way.

17.2.3 which you quote emphasises this: the pursuit race SCORE is doubled to create the total points score

Personally I think itís great that in the 9 classes racing was so tight that there were ties for first in 3 and also for third and fourth in one.

Of course for you in the 800s it makes no difference to the order: without scoring your pursuit race first as a 1 for tie break purposes then you would be second by virtue of having less firsts. Same in the 200s for 1&2 and 3&4.

Not sure about being more specific: the more words one adds the less clear/more risk of being wrong you become!


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:41pm
The results from the pursuit are extracted for each class... that's not an issue so I didn't quote it.

My question is what happens to the pursuit score when you double it for countback. Do you get two 1st, or one 2nd. Or does it stay as one first? That affects the countback.

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RS800 1144


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:56pm
That wasnít my point in quoting it. As well as telling you that class results are extracted 17.2.1 also tells you that your score is your race position which (17.2.3) is then doubled to get the overall points total.

I see why you might be wanting it to count as 2 firsts! But itís only one race so it only counts once.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 3:33pm
Sargesail,

I hope the SI prescribe a high points scoring system, otherwise in low -points, the Passage Race, scoring double points is only worth half of the two Saturday races.

If using high points, the rule A8.1 tie break best to worst will be 20, 19, 18 17 ... . That should work.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 3:50pm
Not sure what you're getting at...
"17.2.1 The score from the pursuit race will correspond to the position within that class only."
That's not in dispute at all. It tells you that your position is from within your own class. 
17.2.3 then says that score is doubled... 

Are you're saying that the SIs make it clear that total scores are calculated after SI 17.2.1 and 17.2.3 have been affected, but count-back is only carried out after 17.2.1 has been done but not 17.2.3? 

Originally posted by sargesail


But itís only one race so it only counts once.
Says who? 17.2.3 says it a double score. Why should that mean one 2nd place rather than two 1st? If you look at a lot of the double score medal races it's written in the results as two 1sts. 

So, is a race win doubled = two race wins, or is it = second place, or does a race win in a double score revert back to a single 1 point score for count-back?


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RS800 1144


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 4:59pm
I haven't see all the SIs, or the results, so its hard to give an opinion. But its beginning to sound as if the SIs were written so that in tie break terms all the races were equal, and the doubling of points only applied when totalling the points. If so it must have been fun to set up in the scoring system!


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by JimC

I haven't see https://www.rs100.org/documents/p1cpcaj7d5pg3q4ud1p10u8i003.pdf" rel="nofollow - all the SIs , or the results, so its hard to give an opinion. But its beginning to sound as if the SIs were written so that in tie break terms all the races were equal, and the doubling of points only applied when totalling the points. If so it must have been fun to set up in the scoring system!

https://www.rs100.org/documents/p1cpcaj7d5pg3q4ud1p10u8i003.pdf" rel="nofollow - SIs

To be frank, I don't feel like we deserved to win. We lost because we let a lead in the last race slip away to a third. But just throwing this out for discussion, because Appendix A works for results where all races are treated equally. Changing the scoring so one race is given an elevated status is unusual and it must have caused some problems otherwise the result would have been consistent (results below are wrong, we actually came second, but were the result from the 200s). 

The overall format of the event was super and great for a cold end of season event to bring all the classes together. Plus we had some of the tightest races of all season in the 800 on Sunday. 






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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 6:28pm
It does seem a little bit ambiguous.

The way I read it the race scores in the pursuit race are 1,2,3,4, like all the other races. The pursuit scores are then doubled when the series total is calculated.

So that makes me think that
1144 scores 1,1,3,(3)
1220 scores 1,1,2,(5)
Which means that 1220 gets the series under 8.1 on the 3rd result.

The pursuit doesn't have any special weighting in the tie break.
I'm not sure if I could get Sailwave to calculate that though!

If on the other hand the pursuit score was doubled for the discards then
1144 scores 1,2,3,(3)
1220 scores 1,1,4,(5)
and 1220 still wins, but on the second score.

Doing it like this has the surprising effect that the pursuit is down weighted. This would be much easier to set up in Sailwave.

I think if the organisers wanted the pursuit to have extra weight in the tie break they'd need to set up up like a medal race, where the result in the pursuit is the first tie break. It would get awfully complicated though.





Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 6:49pm
Surely the whole point of a medal race format is that the medal race decides the medals in a way the average non sailing punter can understand. The previous series decides who get's into the MR but scores are not carried forward. To do it any other way defeats the object (and, yes, I do understand that it isn't usually done that way for whatever reason). I assume the system used here is to increase the importance of the pursuit race to reflect it's much longer duration? In which case it should be half points not double if low point scoring is employed?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 7:17pm
Halfing the points decreases the significance of a race as the point gaps between boats for that race will be less.

0.5 (1), 2, 3 = 5.5
1.5 (3), 1, 2 = 4.5
So two boats that would be on equal points had the scores not been halved, now the one two positions behind in the half points race wins by a point.

So if you want to make a race more important in the overall score you have to multiply by a number greater than 1.

They obviously arbitrarily chose to double the scores to make the pursuit more important and non-discard (otherwise everyone would discard it!). So the next question is if you've determined that a race is twice as important in overall score, do you also want that reflected in the tiebreak? I.e if you're breaking a tie, is a win in a long race and one win in a short race better than two short race wins?

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 7:39pm
Well explained Mozzy you are right of course. Thumbs Up

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Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by mozzy

So the next question is if you've determined that a race is twice as important in overall score, do you also want that reflected in the tiebreak?

But to do that either you'd have to have the pursuit race as the primary tiebreak, or else need to halve the pursuit points when calculating the tie break, after doubling them to calculate the points total, at which point you'd have to clear up the mess after various people's heads exploded...


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 8:06pm
ClapClapClap

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Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 8:10pm
Or when you double the pursuit race score you enter it as two firsts. Just copy over the first race in sailwave and make both non-discardable.

It's all semantics, I don't like the medal race idea as once you say one race is more important than an other you then have to quantify by how much and that's impossible to do.

Obviously this was a fun end of season bash, aimed to get all the fleets together, not have too much waiting around on the water etc etc. The fir.at of the pursuit then fleet racing was perfect. Taking fleet scores out of the pursuit is the only fair thing. Then, I guess it makes some sense to inflate the significance of the pursuit as its longer and otherwise people would do just one day... how you do that is judgement call. Maybe having it twice as important in total score but same as other races in a tie was a good compromise.

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RS800 1144


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:26pm
Sounds to me as if it worked fine. I would maybe make the pursuit score as two results but, with a single discard, only one of them would be discardable (and, obviously both would count for the same points).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 10:50pm
The pursuit wasn't discardable.

Yeah, I think it was fine, and it seems the 200 results have been corrected now.

I think possibly it wasn't thought through in this much detail and no one queried it at the brief. Been running a few years with no ties then they get three or four in one weekend!

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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 11:13pm
Yup, the nightmare scenario for a race committee.......



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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 11:19pm
Originally posted by mozzy

I think possibly it wasn't thought through in this much detail

Dunno, after reading the SI carefully and thinking it through some more I think it was carefully worded. They've managed to give all the races the same weight in the tiebreak without having to resort to writing their own tie break rule. It would have been very easy to end up with the pursuit being disfavoured in the tie break.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 06 Nov 18 at 10:51am
Meh, you're very kind, I think they could be more explicit and I don't think it would be hard to write a rule which doesn't disfavour the pursuit. 

But... Like I said before, any scoring where you are weighting different types of races races is always going to be arbitrary and doesn't work well with the count-back. The pursuit could justifiably have been multiplied by 1.5 or 3 giving different winners, or just been non-discard. It's an end of season celebratory event and I think the organisers were looking for a hook to bring the classes together, rather than devise a scoring scheme equating value of a 2 hour race versus a 40 minute race! At the end of the day, on the water, it felt like we were beat. And most importantly the organises got 100+ boat together in November and engaged across fleets. 


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Nov 18 at 11:30am
At the end of the day, on the water, it felt like we were beat...

This, to me, sounds like the answer in this case. If when you finished, you felt that someone had deservedly pipped you on the system you thought made most sense, ending up winning would feel wrong, whoever got the choccies. Sounds like the other result went against that expectation.

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