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Starboard windward mark port/starboard

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13047
Printed Date: 19 Jul 19 at 3:28pm
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Topic: Starboard windward mark port/starboard
Posted By: piglet
Subject: Starboard windward mark port/starboard
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 2:45pm
P approaches windward mark on port tack, she must leave the mark to starboard then bear away to a wing mark.
S approaches same mark on starboard tack where she must tack then bear away to the same wing mark.
P is aware of S and has allowed adequate room for S to perform her tack & rounding.
S forces P to tack before tacking herself.

What obligations if any does S have to P, Can S sail P away from the mark?



Replies:
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 3:49pm
Assuming not match racing. 
Yes. 18 doesnít apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. (18.1.a). Pure P/S. P must keep clear (10). (S is constrained by 16.)

18.4 means that inside RoW boats canít sail outside boats away from leeward/gybe marks. 

18.4Gybing
When an inside overlapped right-of-way boat must gybe at a mark to sail her proper course, until she gybes she shall sail no farther from the mark than needed to sail that course. Rule 18.4 does not apply at a gate mark.



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 4:14pm
Take the mark away in situations like that so it becomes a simple port starboard. In fleet racing it may be beneficial to force a competitor to tack away before you tack for the mark.

S cannot tack directly in front of P either in such a way that P can no long keep clear (16.2 if memory serves, right of way boat changing course).

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR188
Ex Rooster 8.1 '11'
Ex Laser 167534
Ex Blaze 655


Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 5:48pm
So to emphasise Jeffers comment, if you are P in this situation, you should slow down when you see this situation developing so you would nearly clip Sís transom. S canít tack in front of you so you go round first.

This assumes that there are no other boats to complicate the situation.


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 7:45pm
18 doesn't apply so therefore port starboard which would mean that S can sail P as far off the course as they want as there is no proper course restrictions 

once S passes head to wind though its a different kettle of fish


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 7:58pm
Like Wiclif said though, you need to anticipate early if you're P. 

If 1 Ducked 2 inside the zone then when they both tacked would 1 have right of way over 2?


https://imgur.com/a/wMDZdRP


Posted By: ClubRacer
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 8:04pm
if you enter the zone and mark room rules are off can they ever switch on while you're inside the zone?


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 26 Apr 18 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Like Wiclif said though, you need to anticipate early if you're P. 

If 1 Ducked 2 inside the zone then when they both tacked would 1 have right of way over 2?
Yes.

Which boat is the right of way boat is not affected by being inside or outside the zone.

Originally posted by ClubRacer

if you enter the zone and mark room rules are off can they ever switch on while you're inside the zone?

Yes.

The most common way that mark-room is switched on is under rule 18.2( b ), which depends on a boat being overlapped or clear ahead when the first boat reaches the zone.

Rule 18.2( a ), however does not depend on what happened at the zone boundary, and if rule 18.2 ( b ) (or rule 18.3 ) does not apply rule 18.2 ( a ) will.

Looking at the third diagram above:
  • Initially no mark-room applies because #1 will have to tack at the mark.
  • As #1 luffs into her tack, rule 18 still does not apply, #1 continues to be right of way boat, but is required by rule 16 to give #2 room to keep clear, which she can readily do by herself luffing.
  • The instant #1 passes head to wind, she will be on the same tack as #2, overlapped inside her:
-   #1, while tacking  is required to keep clear of #2 (rule 13), but
-   #2 is required to give @1 mark-room (rule 18.2( a );  and
-  If #1 breaks rule 13 while she is sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, that is room to round the mark as necessary to sail the course, she shall be exonerated (rule 21)

It would normally be dumb for #1 to tack inside #2 at this point.  Her better tactic would be to stand on and put #2 about, then tack for the mark while #2 was tacking away.


Posted By: GML
Date Posted: 27 Apr 18 at 9:28pm
Brass, are you sure that #1 would be exonerated for breaking rule 13 in the situation you describe? Whilst I agree that she is entitled to mark-room, I don't think that includes room to tack in the situation you describe (#1 is inside but to leeward of #2). (Is these a case or call on this?)


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Apr 18 at 11:46am
Originally posted by GML

Brass, are you sure that #1 would be exonerated for breaking rule 13 in the situation you describe? Whilst I agree that she is entitled to mark-room, I don't think that includes room to tack in the situation you describe (#1 is inside but to leeward of #2). (Is these a case or call on this?)
There has been some debate about this interpretation:  RYA seems to think that in this circumstance B is taking 'room to tackto which she is not entitled (see Definition of mark-room), and does not get exoneration.

I disagree.

I note that the the RYA has not issued an Appeal Case, nor has there been a TR Rapid Response Call, nor a WS Q&Q, so the 'taking room to tack' view doesn't seem to be all that popular among Racing Rules Committees, but bear in mind, as I commented above, the scenario should be uncommon in practice, as #1's best course is to put #2 about before tacking herself.

See the lengthy discussion on racingrulesofsailing  http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/32-rule-18-3-and-starboard-roundings" rel="nofollow - here



Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 21 May 18 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by Brass

 
There has been some debate about this interpretation:  RYA seems to think that in this circumstance B is taking 'room to tackto which she is not entitled (see Definition of mark-room), and does not get exoneration.

I disagree.

I note that the the RYA has not issued an Appeal Case, nor has there been a TR Rapid Response Call, nor a WS Q&Q, so the 'taking room to tack' view doesn't seem to be all that popular among Racing Rules Committees, but bear in mind, as I commented above, the scenario should be uncommon in practice, as #1's best course is to put #2 about before tacking herself.

See the lengthy discussion on racingrulesofsailing  http://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/32-rule-18-3-and-starboard-roundings" rel="nofollow - here

Brass, surely the 'room to tack' sentence in the definitions under mark room was aimed at inside overlapped but to leeward boats at a mark where the windward (outside) boat is fetching but the leeward boat (with mark room) needs to luff or double tack to get around. It stops the leeward boat asking for room to double tack to get around the mark. 

They result is, if the inside boat is underlying, they can only luff up in to wind to 'shoot the mark' but not tack. 

In the discussion linked 'room to tack' seems to be discussed in relation to a starboard boat coming in to starboard mark round and taking around the mark. There seems to be idea that as soon as the inside starts to tack to go around the mark, they lose their right to mark room (perhaps for an instant while going through head to wind, perhaps until they are on close hauled on port?). I would say this is just simple mark room as they are not taking any additional room than if a tack wasn't required, for instance if they were just heading up or gybing round a mark (unlike the scenario above were a double tack would require lots more space).  


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