Print Page | Close Window

Rule 30.2 Z Flag

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13034
Printed Date: 11 Nov 19 at 9:19pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Rule 30.2 Z Flag
Posted By: davidyacht
Subject: Rule 30.2 Z Flag
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 5:55pm
Does anyone know how to deal with boats that might deliberately be over the starting line of a start under the Z Flag Rule, for instance a boat could start several boat lengths up the course, finish first and end up in a better position than he might usually be after adding a 20% penalty to his first?

Or if someone deliberately starts early to cover another boat, and a 20% penalty puts him in a better position than if he had started normally?

What is the situation where a starter is late to arrive for a start and is on course side ... can he simply head up and join the race late and take the 20% penalty?

I can see that a Z Flag could be less draconian than a Black Flag, but I cannot see how these abuses can be reconciled.

Or is this left to rule 69 to resolve?


-------------
Happily living in the past



Replies:
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 6:12pm
I'd have thought a 20% penalty would pretty much put you from first to last in a half decent fleet even if your usual finishing position is in the top few boats.

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 6:28pm
60 boat fleet, so 20% penalty is 12 points.  So 1 + 12 = 13, which could be a counter in a high scoring series, or for a back of the fleet sailor benefiting from clear air, could be his best result

-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 7:33pm
Fair comment, in the post above I had assumed that it was a time penalty rather than points. I have just read up on the Z Flag rule and get where you are coming from. Unfortunately the powers that be don't seem too concerned about the mid/back fleet sailors and a front of the fleet guy who relied on such tactics would be unlikely to reap any benefit. If you are regularly in the top 5 at events with 60+ boats you'd be unlikely to be counting any 13 point scores.......

-------------
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 9:33pm
I always thought the 20% was a time penalty!

-------------
OK 2071 & 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 9:33pm
Z flag penalty is an additional penalty additional to the requirement for a boat to start in accordance with the definition of start.

Under a Z flag, a boat that is over early, in the triangle, and does not return and start according to the definition of start is OCS and scored accordingly.

Race Management Manual M3.6 Z Flag Rule, last paragraph

Note: if boats infringe the Z Flag Rule, but there is no General Recall, those boats will receive an Individual Recall and will be treated under RRS 29.1 and RRS 30.2. So boats deliberately starting early will have no advantage except that they might interfere with other competitors heading for a good start.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 9:35pm
The PC should DNE under RRS2. See, for example, in Case 78 -"Whenever a boat intentionally breaks a rule, she also breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a)."


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Brass

Z flag penalty is an additional penalty additional to the requirement for a boat to start in accordance with the definition of start.

Under a Z flag, a boat that is over early, in the triangle, and does not return and start according to the definition of start is OCS and scored accordingly.

Race Management Manual M3.6 Z Flag Rule, last paragraph

Note: if boats infringe the Z Flag Rule, but there is no General Recall, those boats will receive an Individual Recall and will be treated under RRS 29.1 and RRS 30.2. So boats deliberately starting early will have no advantage except that they might interfere with other competitors heading for a good start.

Thanks Brass, this explanation is much clearer to me than the wording of the 30.2 or 44.3 which is not explicit about the requirement to restart correctly.  I guess I was reading this to be a lighter alternative to a BFD score, but this does make sense.  The difficulty in implementation is the physical difficulty of the early starters getting back behind the line after the gun and the race committee monitoring returnees, particularly if it is a fixed line with no “open” ends.


-------------
Happily living in the past


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

The PC should DNE under RRS2. See, for example, in Case 78 -"Whenever a boat intentionally breaks a rule, she also breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a)."
I disagree.

First, this would require a protest, when the boat has already been scored OCS by the race committee without a hearing.

Second, in any case, the boat having been scored OCS, any breach has negligible effect on the fairness of the competition (absent interference with other boats, which shouldn't be taken for granted), so rule 2 should not be used.




Print Page | Close Window

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz - http://www.webwizguide.com