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Setting a course around the cans.....

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12932
Printed Date: 20 Jul 19 at 8:59pm
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Topic: Setting a course around the cans.....
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Setting a course around the cans.....
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 9:54pm
I sail on a small inland lake we usually use the fixed marks plus a couple of inflatables if required. A question arose today (I was asst. R.O.) regarding looping marks,. A leeward mark that would, if applying the shortest route to the next mark, suggest a starboard rounding was rounded to port (the idea being to force boats off to the right of the course). I said they this was a bad idea as 50% would not take notice of the course board and round to Starboard (I was wrong...... I blame 30 years racing windsurfers). I also thought, but was/am not sure if, that was prohibited in the RRS. Do the RRS prohibit looping marks? The only references I can find are that looping a finishing mark is prohibited as "boats finish by crossing the line from the direction of the last mark" (in the RRS) and that looping marks is discouraged (in the RYAs Race Management Guide).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"



Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:14pm
Marks should be set so you go round them towards the next one. Simple as, as far as I'm concerned. Maybe others can show me situations where that isn't true?

Why is forcing the fleet to go one way thought necessary? Are they all sheep who simply follow?



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:27pm
The string rule is the one you are looking at.


28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she
finishes shall, when drawn taut,
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the
previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has
not finished.


The biggest issue is whether the marks are described as passing marks or rounding marks in the SIs. If they aren't rounding marks then the string needn't touch them eg red course. In both cases B is left to starboard.



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:27pm
Precisely..... I thought it was a daft idea and the ROs reasoning didn't make sense to me. 

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:28pm
We do occasionally use a mark to keep boats away from bathing area or a group of fishermen, for instance, bathing area is opposite number 2 buoy, if it is busy we will send boats either to Port or Starboard of  number 2 buoy depending on direction.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:34pm
Originally posted by JimC

The string rule is the one you are looking at.


28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she
finishes shall, when drawn taut,
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order,
(b) touch each rounding mark, and
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the
previous mark.
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has
not finished.


The biggest issue is whether the marks are described as passing marks or rounding marks in the SIs. If they aren't rounding marks then the string needn't touch them eg red course. In both cases B is left to starboard.



That's exactly what I was thinking but it does it actually prohibit a RO from setting a course following the green line?


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:40pm
No, but they do need to specify that B is a rounding mark. To my mind its sensible for club racing SIs to specify that all marks are rounding marks unless specifically identified otherwise.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Dec 17 at 10:54pm
Looking at Graph, using a rounding mark even further from exclusion zone, which would be A to C would work better than just setting a passing mark.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 12:29am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by JimC

The string rule is the one you are looking at. 

 
28.2 A string representing a boat’s track from the time she begins to 
approach the starting line from its pre-start side to start until she 
finishes shall, when drawn taut, 
(a) pass each mark on the required side and in the correct order, 
(b) touch each rounding mark, and 
(c) pass between the marks of a gate from the direction of the 
previous mark. 
She may correct any errors to comply with this rule, provided she has 
not finished. 
 

The biggest issue is whether the marks are described as passing marks or rounding marks in the SIs. If they aren't rounding marks then the string needn't touch them eg red course. In both cases B is left to starboard. 



That's exactly what I was thinking but it does it actually prohibit a RO from setting a course following the green line?

Originally posted by JimC

No, but they do need to specify that B is a rounding mark. To my mind its sensible for club racing SIs to specify that all marks are rounding marks unless specifically identified otherwise.

Pet peeve (doesn't quite rank with 'crash tack'):  there is no such thing as a 'passing mark'.  There are just 'rounding marks' and marks that are not rounding marks.

Why would you want to set a default of  rounding all marks (although sometimes SI do this through carelessness)?

You should avoid setting looping marks.  If you want boats to sail the triangle around mark B, then simply specify B to be left to port.

If the Race Management Manual tells you not to do it, best not to do it.

Looping around marks should be avoided, because, especially at downwind marks, the boats
that are rounding are blanketed by the approaching boats (to windward of them), have no
speed to complete the rounding and a critical bunch of collisions and frustration may easily
come. In addition, in a looping mark, racing rules are very difficult to comply with, rule 18
switching on and off for different boats approaching and leaving the same mark:
competitors have a big difficulty to realise which rule is in force and who is the right of way
boat and their capacity to react and change course is very limited. As a result, rules
compliance is seriously threatened.

I rather like Rupert's way of putting it:
Originally posted by Rupert

Marks should be set so you go round them towards the next one. Simple as,


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Brass

Pet peeve (doesn't quite rank with 'crash tack'):  there is no such thing as a 'passing mark'. 

Appendix B has the concept of passing a mark [grin]. Agreed the term is not used outside the appendix, but it is useful in this context. I must admit I'm not entirely clear what it brings to Appendix B, but that's maybe because I've never been involved in board competition.

Originally posted by Brass

Why would you want to set a default of  rounding all marks (although sometimes SI do this through carelessness)?


Consider a course like this, which is quite useful for round the cans handicap racing.



If a careless or hurried amateur race team sets the starboard rounding mark a bit to the right of the rhumb line between windward and leeward marks, and the leeward mark is not defined as a rounding mark...


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Brass

Pet peeve (doesn't quite rank with 'crash tack'):  there is no such thing as a 'passing mark'. 

Appendix B has the concept of passing a mark [grin]. Agreed the term is not used outside the appendix, but it is useful in this context. I must admit I'm not entirely clear what it brings to Appendix B, but that's maybe because I've never been involved in board competition.
 
I notice that it's used in the defined term 'rounding or passing' which the boards use instead of a zone in rule 18.

Originally posted by JimC


Originally posted by Brass

Why would you want to set a default of  rounding all marks (although sometimes SI do this through carelessness)?


Consider a course like this, which is quite useful for round the cans handicap racing.



If a careless or hurried amateur race team sets the starboard rounding mark a bit to the right of the rhumb line between windward and leeward marks, and the leeward mark is not defined as a rounding mark...
I see what you are driving at.

My preference would be to write in the SI Course:  Red Mark is a rounding mark, or to be rounded to port, rather than making a default.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Brass

My preference would be to write in the SI


If you're writing SIs for an event completely agree, but consider club racing at a typical UK club like mine. We have a standard set of SIs to cover the whole season, and courses are set on the day. Its a bit impractical to edit a set of SIs and publish them between 10am when you set the course and 10:24 when the sequence starts!

As for the situation where you get out there and the wind goes round 90 degrees and you have to hastily change the course... Mind you if a course has to be completely reset in 5 minutes flat out on the water the sensible RO makes sure the new one is very simple - 3 or 4 marks and all port rounding, otherwise some folks are bound to get lost.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 12:46pm
They use the Alzheimers Prevention Rule at Redoubt.. Make us poor old b**tards use as many of the 9 buoys as often as possible as a memory test, it shouldn't be allowed. there should only be three marks to remember in any course.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 6:09pm
Write the course down on masking tape...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Dec 17 at 6:23pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Write the course down on masking tape...
If you saw my dry suit cuff, with layers of cryptic tape.. 2P 3P 7S 4S 6S 9P 8P. 1 -Bank

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https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals      https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website


Posted By: snowleopard
Date Posted: 15 Mar 18 at 1:38pm
It's a very long time since I was involved in club racing but I remember this issue coming up from time to time. If travelling from mark A to mark C via mark B when B is off to starboard from the course between A and C, the norm would be to leave B to port.  If the RO specifies a loop round B, that means leaving B to stbd. 

Back in the day, savvy helms would sail direct from A to C, thereby leaving B to stbd and satisfying the requirements of the course. Is that not the case today?


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One hull good, two hulls better.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 15 Mar 18 at 9:56pm
Why would you want a mark to be looped, unless you happen to be a boat repairer short of work?

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Mar 18 at 10:16pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Why would you want a mark to be looped, unless you happen to be a boat repairer short of work?
No-one would want a mark to be looped, but sometimes circumstances force it.

See the situation JimC described in his post on 11 Dec 17, with a laid mark that could be accidentally laid on the 'wrong' side of the line joining the previous and the next mark.

Likewise, in Sydney, we have a number of permanently laid racing marks for use by all clubs which the port authority requires to be rounded only to starboard:  if you've got one of those on a wing where it would naturally be rounded to port, then it has to be looped to starboard.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 15 Mar 18 at 10:51pm
Sorry that's complete rubbish. looping marks is daft and pointless. If the course says pass a mark to Starboard and you have to loop it to pass that side then ignore it completely and you'll still be passing it to Starboard.......

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 18 Mar 18 at 8:44am
RYA appeal 1985/4 applies.

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingRules/RYA%20Case%20Book%2003.17.pdf#page68" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingRules/RYA%20Case%20Book%2003.17.pdf#page68

When a race committee intends a mark to be looped, the mark must be identified as a rounding mark. When the sailing instructions do not do so, or when they are ambiguous, a boat may elect not to round a mark when she can still leave it on the required side and in the correct order.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 12:48pm
We had pretty bad case of this last weekend, which I royally screwed up by treating all marks as rounding marks. I've now learnt that our sailing instructions don't specify that any marks are rounding marks. 

But it got me thinking about w/l with a gate. In the course below, what would stop boats from spinning around 3s then heading straight for the finish?

 Does the diagram or the word 'rounding' go far enough to remove ambiguity as to whether the mark is a rounding mark? 




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RS800 1144


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:29pm
The diagram clearly illustrates that boats are required to round all marks.  They are all rounding marks.

The required side of each mark is the side illustrated.

Sorry, I don't follow you about 'spinning around 3S'.



Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:34pm
Not sure what you mean by "spinning around" either.

I think a boat could leave the whole gate (3S and 3P) to port on the way to the finish though, if they wanted to for some reason...


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:42pm
Given course 02, could a boat do one full loop around 3s (passing mark 2 to port as she goes), then take 3p to port, 5 to port then finish? 

J2.1 (5) descriptions of marks, including starting and finishing marks, stating the order in which marks are to be passed and the side on which each is to be left and identifying all rounding marks
(see rule 28.2);

Have the marks in the diagram been sufficiently identified as rounding marks? If they have, what element of the course description in the SIs make that so? 


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RS800 1144


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 2:55pm
Where did you get that diagram from?

I have to agree that it does not show how 2 shall be rounded on any leg after leg 2/3.

See Appendix L Addendum A for the proper way to illustrate a Trap course.

I know there were some problems with the courses shown in Appendix S and they were replaced/amended, but Appendix S doesn't have trap courses.


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 4:12pm
RS700 nationals this year. They were in a joint event with the 800s but on an outer loop.

The 800s had a spreader mark, which makes the sneaky loop around 3s not possible, as you would pass the spreader to port before the windward mark. 

But basically most sailing instructions we do on the circuit are like this. Sometimes there is a note that all marks are rounding marks, but often just a course diagram. 

I was just wondering what constitutes ambiguity as references in the RYA case 1985/4 quoted by Presuming Ed. 


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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 11:41pm
Sorry I was a bit quick on the draw with my initial answer.

The diagram dose NOT 'illustrate' that Mark 2 at the end of the 4th leg is a rounding mark, nor which hand it is to be left on.  The diagram has omitted the path between 3p/3s and 2 on the 4th leg.

To save the race, however, I would be satisfied that the heading 'Mark Rounding Order' was sufficient to say that all marks are rounding marks and that Mark 2 must be rounded after 3p/3s, so the 3s spin is not on.

This still leaves the problem about which hand 2 is to be rounded on.




Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 5:28am
It's a shame 3s isn't drawn green. That would arguably give clarity to rounding direction.


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 6:49am
I think the arrow around 3s is quite sufficient to illustrate rounding to starboard.

The problem lies with 2, other than the leg 1 - 2.


Posted By: furtive
Date Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 7:54am
Showing 3s as green could cause further problems if the actual mark is red...


Posted By: mozzy
Date Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 9:41am
Yeah, the actual marks were red, to differentiate with the 800s who were using black marks from the same committee boat and start line. 

I see diagrams like this in a few SIs. In RRS appendix L it provides some text for stating which marks are rounding marks. Unless the SI state that all marks are rounding marks then the fact the lines aren't continuous leaves some ambiguity. 

But the text at the top does say mark ROUNDING order, not passing order. Maybe that's enough to state clearly that all marks are rounding marks, rather than just standard marks. The text describing the passing order of marks doesn't state which side to round them on, and the diagram only shows one laps, so you have to infer that they should be rounded the same way each time. 


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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Brass

The problem lies with 2, other than the leg 1 - 2.

Agreed, but if all port marks are shown red, and the one starboard mark shown green, then you could argue that's just about enough to show 2 as being port rounding on the later laps.



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