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Campaigning with electric cars.

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12869
Printed Date: 14 Nov 19 at 8:28pm
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Topic: Campaigning with electric cars.
Posted By: 423zero
Subject: Campaigning with electric cars.
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 6:07pm
We have many discussions about the future of dinghy sailing. 
what issues will all electric vehicles bring ?
Talking towing, caravans, boat trailers etc.
Campaigning could be difficult with limited mileage vehicles.



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 6:16pm
*If* electric vehicles become universal then the range problem will get solved. Who knows, it might be like the days of horses - every 100 miles you stop to change battery packs. If it doesn't get solved then there won't be electric cars. And don't forget the 2040 thing (which of course could by changed by any government in the meantime) only mandates hybrid cars, so when the rules come into force, who knows, it might be 10 mile radius by electricity and 1,000 mile radius by petrol...


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 6:21pm
I had a hybrid outlander and towed a rib with it. It was great for launching and recovery, but the small fuel tank (to make space for the batteries) made long, low mpg journeys a nightmare. Lots of refuelling.

I think the technology has a way to go for towing heavier loads, although it barely noticed the Laser.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 6:47pm
Would imagine Caravan industry investigating and planning, 20 odd foot twin axle caravans towed by a large 4x4, camper vans, power hungry combo's.
possibile power plants with technology today,
Hydrogen (unlikely). 
Flywheel drive, (dangerous), possibility for HGV and buses/coaches.
What else is out there ?


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 9:43pm
Both Toyota and Honda are putting all their efforts into hydrogen as people start to realise that Electric cars still need to get their electricity from somewhere, and that somewhere is usually a fossil fuelled power station.

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OK 2071 & 2129
RS200 411


Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 01 Oct 17 at 10:55pm
Yep, some way to go with electric cars. Norway has embraced all-electric motoring with commendable speed. However, I'm told you have to stick to the urbanised areas. Battery ranges plummet in sub-zero temperatures and Norway is over 2000kms long!


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 7:53am
Cyclors will be needed to provide the extra range ........ Wink

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Chris


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 7:58am
I think electric vehicles are the way we are going and the infrastructure and range will be resolved one way or another, maybe in ways we cant yet imagine. I suspect the current Petrol Stations we know and hate, will turn into battery-swop stations - with a range of industry standard battery types (to be agreed). All this is in many ways good news as it forces industry to make better battery types. Its a shame that apple have dropped out of the electric car development as I also suspect that the paradigm of the car as we know it will change, and it will be a non-traditional car maker that will lead it - maybe Dyson for example. These are really interesting times ahead. 
As to the OP question, we are a way yet from battery technology dealing with heavy tow loads, but for us sailors, towing a dinghy isnt really an issue IMHO.


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Chris


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:10am
Battery swapping is how the Tesla electric trucks are going to work apparently. a battery swap can be done in around 10-20 minutes and as you will lease the batteries there is no need to worry about cost (on the Tesla truck).

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iiiiticki
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:21am
My friend has a hybrid Volvo which I have driven for some distance towing a double stacker. The only problem seems to be huge depreciation and the way it navigates boat parks in dangerous, ghostly silence.


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:27am
There is bound to be heavy depreciation for early adopters as the tech is really still 1st generation.  I am one of those who bought the 1st gen Pebble watch ..... 




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Chris


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 10:04am
A mate has a Toyota Rav hybrid that he tows with. Absolutely no issues with it. However, his first hybrid was a Prius and only after he'd bought it did he discover it was not type approved for towing....... So check before you buy.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Mariner_One
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 11:58am
I support everything electric. We need to stop using fossil fuels.

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http://sebastus.com
Slow down. Sail.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by Mariner_One

I support everything electric. We need to stop using fossil fuels.



But bear in mind a large proportion of electricity is still generated using fossil fuels. Until the energy mix is predominantly from renewable or nuclear sources the zero emission electric car is illusionary at best.

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 1:00pm
It's a pity the Government didn't intervene to demand battery standardisation, encourage the oil companies to replace gas stations with banks of charged batteries for you to just pull over and switch for a small fee, all being charged by solar or wind.

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Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by iGRF

It's a pity the Government didn't intervene to demand battery standardisation, encourage the oil companies to replace gas stations with banks of charged batteries for you to just pull over and switch for a small fee, all being charged by solar or wind.

Pretty sure that will happen in time. Its too early in the lifecycle to get to a standardised globally accepted battery bank system.




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Chris


Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 1:33pm
Read somewhere about research into charging electrolyte at wind farms, for distribution to 'petrol' stations.

A long way off perhaps, but another way to rapid re-charge.


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 1:37pm
I think this way station idea is probably the way forward. 
Ford will have their battery standard, Vauxhall another etc.
Battery exchange will be quicker than present day fuel filling, as simple as changing a cassette tape.
Fossil fuels will be with us for a long time, something like 90% of Hydrogen fuel comes from propane, modern coal fired power stations very clean.


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Battery swapping is how the Tesla electric trucks are going to work apparently. a battery swap can be done in around 10-20 minutes and as you will lease the batteries there is no need to worry about cost (on the Tesla truck).

quite possibly, the massive  , but low  tech, battery packs in very narrow aisle  forklifts used in high bay  warehouses can be changed in a couple of minutes with a  dedicated  charger / changer   rig ...  massive as in getting on for a tonne if not more  ( a ride-on  electric pallet truck pack is  about 200 kg )


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 02 Oct 17 at 9:34pm
Car battery swapping will be automated, drive in, probably something like the automated car washes where you drive onto a chain, get pulled along, old battery out, move further, new battery replaced, drive away when windscreen level with sign


Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 8:12am
Tesla look to have it sorted. Might not fit in your average car though ....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41469231" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-41469231

LOL


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Chris


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 5:05pm
I'd check out Kryton on his YouTube channel... for up to date info on this stuff. 

As for long distances, fast charging stations, they are here already - Tesla Supercharger's... they'll only get better.

As for Hydrogen - it only makes really good sense for really big things like Super Container Ships - which coincidentally are the really big polluters. (Think about that when you order your tech from amazon)

The thing that might be game changing in the short term is Petrolithium, as theres a shortage of Lithium.

[TUBE]youtu.be/nWLzlrGGuxQ[/TUBE]

[TUBE]youtu.be/c3PkgUcI4Z8[/TUBE]

[TUBE]youtu.be/T4LheD1l2c4[/TUBE]


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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 5:46pm
TBF the only reason big freight ships are 'the big polluters' is 'cos they are orders of magnitude bigger than anything else, cars, trucks or planes. The most efficient (i.e. least polluting) means of transport is rail, ships come next (producing roughly twice the pollution/mile/tonne carried) then road (12 x rail) then air (couldn't find an accurate figure only that it's much word than boats apparently).

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 7:08pm
Err... whilst you can make that argument from data, The old adage of: lies, damned lies, and statistics, rings quite true with that satement. In todays economic system where the production of a 'thing' - means parts can be made in several locations around the globe, brought together in the assembly location and then again distributed around the world to sell in different markets means it is very cost effective, due to containerisation and the effective slave labour in unregulated countries. But it is at the cost of enormous pollution. If you made the 'thing' in the country of sale it would be far less polluting but far more expensive, at least in the northern hemisphere. Its the same concept as 'Air Miles' when you are shopping for veg in the supermarket. Combine that with the 'thing' being made of polluting materials, which then gets packed up into containers as waste and sent to another unregulated location to be dismantled on container ships. Leaves you with a massive pollution problem associated with container ships and the plastic crap they punt around the world. Turn these container ships Green with hydrogen cell engines and you have significantly reduce the Co2 pumped into the atmosphere. It might be cost effective economically but not ecologically. Simple, to be frank.

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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 8:52pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Err... whilst you can make that argument from data, The old adage of: lies, damned lies, and statistics, rings quite true with that satement. In todays economic system where the production of a 'thing' - means parts can be made in several locations around the globe, brought together in the assembly location and then again distributed around the world to sell in different markets means it is very cost effective, due to containerisation and the effective slave labour in unregulated countries. But it is at the cost of enormous pollution. If you made the 'thing' in the country of sale it would be far less polluting but far more expensive, at least in the northern hemisphere. Its the same concept as 'Air Miles' when you are shopping for veg in the supermarket. Combine that with the 'thing' being made of polluting materials, which then gets packed up into containers as waste and sent to another unregulated location to be dismantled on container ships. Leaves you with a massive pollution problem associated with container ships and the plastic crap they punt around the world. Turn these container ships Green with hydrogen cell engines and you have significantly reduce the Co2 pumped into the atmosphere. It might be cost effective economically but not ecologically. Simple, to be frank.

Didn't you ship a boat all the way from NZ when we have many in the U.K., even if you did want a Farr 3.7 why not build one locally as you suggest than contributing to all that pollution getting one containered from NZ?

Simple to be frank. 


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Err... whilst you can make that argument from data, The old adage of: lies, damned lies, and statistics, rings quite true with that satement. In todays economic system where the production of a 'thing' - means parts can be made in several locations around the globe, brought together in the assembly location and then again distributed around the world to sell in different markets means it is very cost effective, due to containerisation and the effective slave labour in unregulated countries. But it is at the cost of enormous pollution. If you made the 'thing' in the country of sale it would be far less polluting but far more expensive, at least in the northern hemisphere. Its the same concept as 'Air Miles' when you are shopping for veg in the supermarket. Combine that with the 'thing' being made of polluting materials, which then gets packed up into containers as waste and sent to another unregulated location to be dismantled on container ships. Leaves you with a massive pollution problem associated with container ships and the plastic crap they punt around the world. Turn these container ships Green with hydrogen cell engines and you have significantly reduce the Co2 pumped into the atmosphere. It might be cost effective economically but not ecologically. Simple, to be frank.

No argument with any of that Jack but it ain't what you said. Anyway there's no doubt the way to reduce transport costs is to not transport stuff (and I'm very much in favour of that).

Douglas Adams got it in one when he said "Bypasses are devices that allow some people to dash from point A to point B very fast while other people dash from point B to point A very fast. People living at point C, being a point directly in between, are often given to wonder what's so great about point A that so many people from point B are so keen to get there, and what's so great about point B that so many people from point A are so keen to get there. They often wish that people would just once and for all work out where the hell they wanted to be."


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 9:21pm
Like dinghies from Australia?

Growing food where it doesn't need artificial heat can cause less pollution than transporting it.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 9:31pm
'tis indeed a minefield Wink but, surely if the food needs artificial heat we shouldn't be either growing or eating it until the weather is warm enough for the former?

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 9:39pm
BTW, maybe the answer to pollution in cities is not electric cars (which help local pollution but not global pollution as they just move it elsewhere) but efficient, clean, cheap or preferably, free public transport. Okay it doesn't help us dinghy types much but other European counties manage it so it ain't rocket science.....

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 9:43pm
Strawberries, once a year, forget that LOL


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 10:06pm
So now we reach the nub of the problem...... Global warming is entirely the fault of 432zero's strawberry fetish Angry

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 10:24pm
Whilst eating a green (native, grown in summer outside) dish of Strawberries (local) with 'Kellys of Cornwall' (transported a couple of hundred miles) vanilla (gulp, thousands of miles) ice cream.
I am looking at the new 'Tesla' 3, which will compete with BMW 3 series and Mercedes C class, looks promising, massively over-subscribed, state they are trying to un-sell it ?


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 03 Oct 17 at 10:42pm
Are those the ultimate 'green credentials' electric car, local seasonal fruit and local ice-cream? Well I guess I could live with it if the strawberries and ice-cream didn't cost more than my boat Wink

Actually I'm a "local ale" man myself......


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by 2547

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Err... whilst you can make that argument from data, The old adage of: lies, damned lies, and statistics, rings quite true with that satement. In todays economic system where the production of a 'thing' - means parts can be made in several locations around the globe, brought together in the assembly location and then again distributed around the world to sell in different markets means it is very cost effective, due to containerisation and the effective slave labour in unregulated countries. But it is at the cost of enormous pollution. If you made the 'thing' in the country of sale it would be far less polluting but far more expensive, at least in the northern hemisphere. Its the same concept as 'Air Miles' when you are shopping for veg in the supermarket. Combine that with the 'thing' being made of polluting materials, which then gets packed up into containers as waste and sent to another unregulated location to be dismantled on container ships. Leaves you with a massive pollution problem associated with container ships and the plastic crap they punt around the world. Turn these container ships Green with hydrogen cell engines and you have significantly reduce the Co2 pumped into the atmosphere. It might be cost effective economically but not ecologically. Simple, to be frank.

Didn't you ship a boat all the way from NZ when we have many in the U.K., even if you did want a Farr 3.7 why not build one locally as you suggest than contributing to all that pollution getting one containered from NZ?

Simple to be frank. 

Yes I did ship my boat from NZ.

And what I said was 'think about it'... because I guess a lot of people would not realise the pollution Container Ships kick out. I then explained that Hydrogen Fuel Cells would be a practical way to reduce the pollution from Container ships.

TBF you then pitched in 'all chippy like'.

As for my carbon foot print related to my shipping my Farr 3.7... I think I've got some of that in the bank, as I've had the highest insulated home running Solar Thermal and Solar Photovoltaic Cells running an electric house, with the highest mpg cars for over 20 years.


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Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 2:28pm
Towing distance problem with an electric car is simple!

Look at a caravan, massive chassis with loads of space. Fill that with batteries, than plug it into the car as a 'booster pack'. When you get to the field and start pooing in a bucket, most sites have electric hook up so you can leave it to charge over the course of your few days/ weeks that you are there, wouldn't even need to be a fast charger if you are there for more than 24hrs.

No need for motors or anything in the caravan as it just becomes a towable battery unit.

Base of a caravan is 2-3 times the size of the average car towing it, so your 300 mile range Tesla Model X could be on for 700-900 miles quite easily on one charge?

Now look at the space on the averave combi boat trailer, ok its only about 50mm deep and triangular shaped but sure you could get a decent battery pack in there. Just need a hook up where the trailers are stored during the event to charge it




Posted By: ttc546
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 2:35pm
Dont think you understand the towing weight limits currently imposed for car/caravan combinations and the danger if even 1 extra battery may have... 😁

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Chris


Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by ttc546

Dont think you understand the towing weight limits currently imposed for car/caravan combinations and the danger if even 1 extra battery may have... 😁


Perfectly understand it.

The avrage 5-6m caravan weighs circa 1200kg.

The avarage Tesla Model X weighs 2500kg.

Working on the 85% guideline thats easily a few hundred Kg of battery as long as its unifomly distributed

Based on the average dinghy at 150kg with road trailer and crap at best 500kg, thats plenty of scope for batteries in a trailer

Of course the X would need type approval for towing.

BUT get a LandRover they are rated to tow 3500kg, hydrolic link the brakes and its 4000kg, thats alot of caravan and batteries.

Obviously if the caravan was designed to be a mobile battery pack you could make the thing lighter in the first place. Carbonfibre kittchen units and doors?


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 4:45pm
And the additional load on the towing vehicle from lugging all the dead weight around? Not forgetting that caravans and boats on trailers generally have the aerodynamics of bricks. And the impossibility of manual handling something of that weight. Tesla's X is approved for towing, I believe, but the S isn't. Whether the 3 will be I don't know.

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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Oct 17 at 4:54pm
I have a remote control motor mover on my caravan, so extra weight wouldn't be an issue.
Battery would be enough to counter extra weight and drag of caravan.


Posted By: Ardea
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 9:11am
Towing still doesn't seem to be designed into electric cars, but there seem to be people out there who will fit tow hooks.  Seems to be mainly in the US where the powers that be seem far less invested in the maintenance of your vehicle.  Really not sure where that leaves us in the UK.  I'd love to have a leaf with a towbar.  Would be fine for 99% of the driving I do and, with a little planing, would allow for me to do some area traveller events.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 10:15am
The main issue is type approval, if the vehicle hasn't been approved for towing you are not allowed to tow with it 'simples'. The Leaf is not (nor BTW is the Prius). So it is unlawful to even fit a tow bar to a Leaf. In practice you won't find a tow bar for a Leaf as no manufacturer will make one. I have a 1990 MX5, back then type approval for towing was not required, by the time I bought it in 2000 it was. A few years later I wanted to fit a tow bar but was told that Witter (in this case) did not make one as the car is not type approved for it.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Phil_1193

Originally posted by ttc546

Dont think you understand the towing weight limits currently imposed for car/caravan combinations and the danger if even 1 extra battery may have... 😁


Perfectly understand it.

The avrage 5-6m caravan weighs circa 1200kg.

The avarage Tesla Model X weighs 2500kg.

Working on the 85% guideline thats easily a few hundred Kg of battery as long as its unifomly distributed

Based on the average dinghy at 150kg with road trailer and crap at best 500kg, thats plenty of scope for batteries in a trailer

Of course the X would need type approval for towing.

BUT get a LandRover they are rated to tow 3500kg, hydrolic link the brakes and its 4000kg, thats alot of caravan and batteries.

Obviously if the caravan was designed to be a mobile battery pack you could make the thing lighter in the first place. Carbonfibre kittchen units and doors?

What we're missing here is that if you are towing a caravan you can't also be towing a boat.......

I have had caravans for probably 40 years, and we camped before that. Once you are touring a caravan if you want to take a boat you must either car top it (which limits your choice of boats) or travel in two cars. I did both at different times but for most of that time I was windsurfing rather than dinghy sailing. It was only when we stopped touring and put the caravan on a seasonal pitch 10 years ago that I got another boat.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 11:21am
So do we have a consensus as to which is the best candidate for our boat travelling needs?

I've been flirting with electric vehicles for several years now, nearly missed the plane in France when we hired one to visit a supplier which was only half the stated range distance away.
I tried a renault Kangoo van, lucky I tried it one february when it was cold and the range literally halved.
Had a Nissan leaf on demo which was better but it was summer.
Was on the verge of buying the Outlander when the subsidy got dropped in April.
We're all solar here with a house battery so charging during the day would be very green, but there is now such a plethora of hybrids and electrics, choosing one is not easy.

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Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons



What we're missing here is that if you are towing a caravan you can't also be towing a boat.......



Never suggested you would.

Suggested IF you towed a caravan, fill the underfloor chassis area with a battery pack.

IF you tow a boat, fill the big empty triangle space on a combi trailer with a (very thin) battery pack

Both could increase range when towing

both individual solutions to the towing range of full electric vehicles

Once they make a full electric Mondeo/ Insignia/ 3 series/ generic euro grot box with a range to match or exceed the circa 300 miles of a Tesla for less than the £75k+ Tesla charge, thats when itll be more important to the average UK human



Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 12:29pm
This would solve the range problem but getting a tow bar fitted might be a problem :-

http://.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-prod/2013/10/Solar_Car_Tokai_Challenger.jpg" rel="nofollow - http://.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-prod/2013/10/Solar_Car_Tokai_Challenger.jpg


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 12:54pm
Originally posted by 423zero

I have a remote control motor mover on my caravan, so extra weight wouldn't be an issue.
Battery would be enough to counter extra weight and drag of caravan.

But the motor mover is a) specced for the weight of the caravan - not something over double that and b) how much traction will a 4-5" jockey wheel have on even a slightly damp grass caravan pitch?

I just don't think these solutions have practical, let alone commercial, legs.

Yes, at some point in the future towing will be possible with electric vehicles. By that time the mainstream range will be up where Tesla are now, and those towing will have to accept the reduced range that dragging weight and pi55-poor aerodynamics around brings. I don't even think that hybrids will work, because the little ICE won't have the grunt to pull whatever up hills.


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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 1:10pm
Motor mover on my caravan is connected to driving wheels, and uses two starter motors.


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 2:11pm
So was mine when I was towing it around. I was told it would pull the 'van up onto a low loader (say 1:5 slope) so pretty good but maybe not with an extra tonne of batteries onboard?

The 4x4 version Rav 4 Hybrid is rated to tow 1650 kg (Toyota's figure) the FWD version only 800kg. Either will pull a boat with ease. The max torque of the electric motor is available from standstill so, in theory, they should make particularly good tow cars.


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 3:31pm
I stand corrected. The only type I've seen worked on the jockey wheel. 
However, who is likely to spend £000's on a tonne or more of hi-tech batteries when they'll be used at best 2 days in 7? And that's only if you travel every weekend throughout the year... Quite apart from the different footprint various caravans and trailers have and the engineering effort that brings. Theft risk from your boat trailer, where the batteries in the triangle formed by the 'A'-Frame will be somewhat exposed? Caravan: axle(s) near the middle so weight distribution OK. Boat trailer: Axle at the back and batteries far outweigh the boat so nose weight becomes yet another issue to overcome. and it only works for combi's so the market is tiny. 
Pure electric just ain't gonna work unless and until the problem of putting energy into the cells in a reasonable time is resolved, and the cost and weight of the things, too.
Anecdotally, hybrid vehicles, in general use, have worse consumption than a halfway decent turbo-diesel, whatever one might think of the devil's fuel.


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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 9:06pm
Feeling a little "bah humbug" over the electric car bandwagon. Hopefully others more knowledgeable will be able to cheer me up.
Hybrids, what's that all about apart from removing emissions from cities? They are heavier and cost more than ICE only cars and over any appreciable distance little to no more economical. Are they as much a way to sell more cars to Guardian readers as anything to cut pollution?
Home charging, how long can that honeymoon last? Domestic electricity carries minimal taxation whereas road fuel carries a lot of tax. If / when there is a major decline in ICE to electric Government will have a large revenue shortfall to make up.
By most accounts the National Grid is close to capacity, after years of efficiency drives for domestic and industry to use less energy there will have to be massive investment to cope with charging the nations private transport vehicles.
Hydrogen. I may have imagined it but I thought I read that Germany was some way to creating a pipeline grid to carry hydrogen. How much research is going into splitting off hydrogen compared to battery and electricity development. ICEs running on liquid hydrogen or electric motors on hydrogen fuel cells? 


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 9:22pm
I did hear recently that unless the grid was upgraded users may find that they cannot use a fast car charger and the kettle at the same time http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/" rel="nofollow - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/
 


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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 9:51pm
I don't think you will be able to charge car at home if electric cars become the norm, I believe battery exchange at a way station will be way forward, government can put their VIG on, rather than having complicated metering at home. 
You can bet plug will be something secure to stop you charging at home, would be like 'red diesel' using domestic electricity for automotive use Angry


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 10:10pm
We cant even get mobile phone chargers to be the same across brands so we've almost no chance of having interchangeable battery packs across car manufacturers IMO and the chance of any international standard being developed and made common before technology moves on may be slight as well - we cant even do main's plugs the same!



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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 10:13pm
I think there are bigger threats to transporting our boats around than just the challenges of towing with an electric car.  The combination of electric car charging infrastructure, with autonomous vehicles and the overall drive down on pollution and carbons may lead to a complete change in vehicle ownership/automobile industry models.  It seems weird and perhaps unlikely, and the last time we saw any such a disruptive technology (horse transport to the car - ownership a one to one swap) it didn't pan out this way but there weren't massive infrastructure costs associated with that change (in fact there were reductions - no need to rid cities of tonnes of manure (50000 horses in London producing 15-35lbs each per day.  2.5Mlbs per day in New York).  If the driving experience is gone why do you need to own a car.  And the implications of that are staggering.  An OECD Study of Montreal and Lisbon reckoned that the size of vehicle fleet would be reduced by 90% and 60% respectively if all cars were autonomous and 'shared'.  Mobility becomes a service in this model.  If that happened it would be a serious threat to the tracelling aspect of our sport, and a few more besides.  On the upside no caravans either.


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 10:15pm
Oh yes and there is a pretty clear view in parts of the industry that the near concurrent policy announcement by a number of governments about electric only by 2040 merely reflected the level of confidence that market forces will drive all electrics well before then anyway....


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Oct 17 at 10:39pm
KazRob,
Thought UN had mandated all chargers had to have same jack ?


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 11:15am
Originally posted by KazRob

I did hear recently that unless the grid was upgraded users may find that they cannot use a fast car charger and the kettle at the same time http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/" rel="nofollow - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/
 

I think you'll find that it complete BS from climate change denying dinosaurs.

From > 2:00 unless you want to know about more Daily Mail BS anti electric stories about kettles.

[TUBE]outu.be/cOsAb760o48[/TUBE]


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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 12:17pm
Whoa there buddy "everyone will have a 7kw charger" !  We live very remote in the north of England without a mains supply and manage a perfectly civilised life running our house off a 3kw inverter, 7kw sounds pretty greedy to me.   


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 1:03pm
Originally posted by 423zero

KazRob,
Thought UN had mandated all chargers had to have same jack ?

Well my Iphone charger is different from other's phone chargers so that's not happened has it. Would it have been the EU and not the UN by any chance

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow


Originally posted by KazRob


I did hear recently that unless the grid was upgraded users may find that they cannot use a fast car charger and the kettle at the same time http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/" rel="nofollow - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/
 


I think you'll find that it complete BS from climate change denying dinosaurs.
From > 2:00 unless you want to know about more Daily Mail BS anti electric stories about kettles.
[TUBE]outu.be/cOsAb760o48[/TUBE]


Thanks for the accusatory tone there. The story linked was from the Telegraph (not the Daily Mail)was repeated by the BBC (who presumably get branded as climate denyers as well as lefties, by right wingers, right wing by lefties and up here anti-indy but they cant all be true).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41011008" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41011008

Whether it is BS or not I wouldn't know but would have to ask an electrical engineer to see if the numbers are reasonable. Certainly I wouldn't expect they would have ever expected these high energy loads being put on a domestic supply

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 1:24pm
Kazrob,
Google UN and mobile phone chargers.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 1:33pm
I did - UN approved a standard for micro USB in 2009 - not what my iPhone has many years later.

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: A2Z
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 2:26pm
Electric cars devalue like crazy and just don't make any sort of financial sense.  They make be quick, cool and spacious, but losing 80% value in three years more than offsets any fuel saving. It is not in the manufacturers interests to have a standardised battery - a better battery is a USP and standardisation will stifle development. 


Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by A2Z

Electric cars devalue like crazy and just don't make any sort of financial sense.  They make be quick, cool and spacious, but losing 80% value in three years more than offsets any fuel saving. . 


Really?

Thats a massive broad brush statement

Find me a 3 year old Tesla model S for less than 40k.

around 60k new for the base 85Kw model (these are the cheapest 3 year old ones available but the 85 is discontinued) thats about 25% depreciation

On the other hand a 3 year old base 320D BMW is less than 10k - at circa £30-35k new thats over 60%  lost, far more % wise than a Tesla

The BMW will cost more to run over the time period as well

What you mean to say is crap electric cars like the G-Wizz might not make financial sense if you are a private buyer using your own money.

Or for the general public buying ANY new car doesn't make financial sense

But people still buy new cars.

How many people here use their company car/ van/ truck to tow their boat/ caravan/ carry their windsurfing kit?

Depreciation makes no difference to them

Running costs and incentives to the comapny that does own it and paying less tax by the employee for their benefits in kind are what counts

Did you know if you lease or contract hire any fully electric car you can pay for it by salary sacrifice? You pay for it before tax so saves you money and saves NI payments by the company you work for.

Its not all about depreciation when playing with electric cars






Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 6:28pm
Possibly we are in a window of incentives to pump prime electric cars that will close as soon numbers begin to approach anything near mainstream use, very much like the initial high rates of payments for PV panels. Very quickly PV reached a level of universal acceptance and payment rates were slashed.


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 9:02pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

TBF the only reason big freight ships are 'the big polluters' is 'cos they are orders of magnitude bigger than anything else, cars, trucks or planes. The most efficient (i.e. least polluting) means of transport is rail, ships come next (producing roughly twice the pollution/mile/tonne carried) then road (12 x rail) then air (couldn't find an accurate figure only that it's much word than boats apparently).


don;t forget  how   crappy the  heavy fuel oils  are that you can run  the big slow speed  engines one, basically the crap left  after you;ve refined all the  nice stuff out of the crude  


Posted By: zippyRN
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

KazRob,
Thought UN had mandated all chargers had to have same jack ?

indeed and  it;s only  really been Apple  holding out  but if the  Iphone X  has USB-C  that'll be the  vastest majority if not all phones using   micro USB or USB-C


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 06 Oct 17 at 10:24pm
Like the look of these, real traffic dodger, but won't carry a boat.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=passenger+drone&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibvPqH99zWAhUILhoKHUl1BEEQ_AUICygC&biw=1349&bih=641#imgrc=fVje3n75-8sntM:


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 5:27pm
So we're going to electric cars-we agree that. Bigger issue is automatous vehicles. The next generation, maybe our kids, won't want to own a car as you will call one on your iPhone 50 or whatever. And when it turns up, it won't have a towbar of course. And once that's the market, Ford, VW and everyone else won't bother with development of traditional consumer vehicles. People who still fancy owning a vehicle will get an electric trike and cities will be full of electric motorcycles and self-drive cars. We'll all cling to 20 year old Golfs with towbars until they fall apart or the nearest petrol station is more than 1/2 a tanks travel away. Or legislation will make them illegal. Forget diesel.

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Stewart


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by drifter

Forget diesel.


Aaargh........just had my trusty 21 yr old VW T4 body work restored. Can't think of a better vehicle that suits my needs and there doesn't appear to be an electric alternative.

I suspect the autonomous vehicles will not be terribly popular with the private driver.....Too many blokes get nervous when being driven, me included. They're many years away imo. Hauliers will love them though.


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 6:46pm
OK so it's got 20 years max life left, then into the T4 museum (or scrapyard), or someone will market an electric conversion (not cheap) The concept of "private driver" will pretty much disappear. You soon (no definition) won't be allowed to drive a combustion powered car anywhere near London or Oxford, for example, and car parks will be a complete rarity. I'm in the industry, and that's where we're headed

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Stewart


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 7:03pm
I think personal transport will continue, they will probably be self driving though, doesn't bother me being driven about, jump in, say 'Cortina' take me down the club, 'Cortina' take me to Cornwall, wake me up when we are almost there.


Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 7:06pm
But that could be a bit of a problem if it takes you to Cortina, rather than down the club, although I am sure that Cortina is really nice but not that good for sailing.


Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 7:49pm
423zero-thats exactly my point. When the autonomous car turns up and it's not big enough for the Solo mainsail (and lets face it, by that time we'll all be old enough for Solos) then sailing denied. And I think you need to be more specific about "take me down the club" Might accidentally be Spearmint Rhino, or worse, the golf club ;-)


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Stewart


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 8:45pm
Come on chaps, think of your present set up with electric drive and ability to drive where you want to go.
I at the moment have a diesel car, I use this car daily for work and pleasure, I also tow a large Caravan and boat trailer, 20 years time I will do same but with a car that drives itself.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 11:05pm
It's going to be very handy on the way home after a very hard day's sailing. Have a kip and wake up when you get home

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 07 Oct 17 at 11:42pm
I wonder if drink drive laws will still count ?


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 7:06am
Is anybody reading this old enough to remember Raymond Baxter on Tomorrow's World? All that leisure time we'll have thanks to robotics and computers and driving, com'on that's so mid 20th century thinking, jet packs and helicopters surely.


Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 10:51am
I think you'll find that even back in the black and white days TM covered jet packs and helicopters for personal transport. Little sign of this happening in foreseeable future IMO.

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Merlin Rocket 3609


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 11:47am
Surely the solution is self driving road bases?

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 2:06pm
Ultimately ones that would not only drive the dinghy to the open but also unrig and rerig the dinghy all ready for racing! Fat chance!

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Merlin Rocket 3609


Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 4:24pm
.......anyway, battery tech is not good enough yet. Elec to drive the vehicle, run servos and sensors, run the computer, lights, wipers, heaters......and entertainment system for the bored occupants = probably about 100 miles before a recharge/fresh battery or 10 miles if towing a 2K.

still Sci-Fi until that major battery tech breakthrough. 



Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 5:55pm
"I think you'll find that even back in the black and white days TM covered jet packs and helicopters for personal transport. Little sign of this happening in foreseeable future IMO.  "

Quite so, my slightly obtuse point. Beer 


Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 08 Oct 17 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by drifter


423zero-thats exactly my point. When the autonomous car turns up and it's not big enough for the Solo mainsail (and lets face it, by that time we'll all be old enough for Solos) then sailing denied. And I think you need to be more specific about "take me down the club"
Might accidentally be Spearmint Rhino, or worse, the golf club ;-)



Sailing Club's will need to adapt and provide safe and suitable on site storage for sails.

Our Club has offered this facility to those who want it for many years. Works really well.


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 8:43am
They'll probably also need to provide charging facilities

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by KazRob

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow


Originally posted by KazRob


I did hear recently that unless the grid was upgraded users may find that they cannot use a fast car charger and the kettle at the same time http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/" rel="nofollow - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/21/dont-boil-kettle-charging-electric-car-will-blow-fuse-national/
 


I think you'll find that it complete BS from climate change denying dinosaurs.
From > 2:00 unless you want to know about more Daily Mail BS anti electric stories about kettles.
[TUBE]outu.be/cOsAb760o48[/TUBE]


Thanks for the accusatory tone there. The story linked was from the Telegraph (not the Daily Mail)was repeated by the BBC (who presumably get branded as climate denyers as well as lefties, by right wingers, right wing by lefties and up here anti-indy but they cant all be true).
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41011008" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41011008

Whether it is BS or not I wouldn't know but would have to ask an electrical engineer to see if the numbers are reasonable. Certainly I wouldn't expect they would have ever expected these high energy loads being put on a domestic supply

I'm staggered how you manage to get 'accusatory tone' out of that. Given that this is a typed format, but hey each to there own.  (Edit: did you actually watch the video?)


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Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 9:39pm


I'm not on here to get into personal bashing as others on here do at times, but opening a statement with 'I'll think you find it complete BS'
is never going to be seen as that friendly especially as you don't back it up with anything solid other than a YouTube clip. The video doesn't show up on my ancient browser at work (very conservative IT dept) so without knowing it was there all I saw was the text which didn't read well to me. Incidently - As of tonight I still haven't seen it as the video wont play so still no idea what it is.
Perhaps we all need to remember that sometimes what we write isn't always what others read.
I have no idea if the story is valid or not, but the BBC are a fairly reliable news source and if you're an electrical engineer or somebody else qualified to challenge the story (I'm certainly not qualified) please do put me right with some realistic numbers


Edit - ok I've seen the video now and I can't see why you're describing the news stories as BS. The story was that if you fit an fast 11kW charger to charge your 95kWh (roughly equiv to 300mi it says) car in less than 9hours then any additional load in the house would blow the fuse and the video agrees with that. If you want to use a slower 7kW charger there isn't an issue with the house electrics but it will take you 13.5hrs to get your full charge
From what I can see both the news stories and the video highlight the bits of the report they want to but the fundamentals seem the same. The other consideration will likely be the effect in the grid supply. We all know the grid has to kick in fast response power stations like the pumped storage in Ben Cruachan when the kettles go on after Eastenders finishes 'cos the big nuclear and gas power stations need to keep a fairly constant output, so will we see a mass switching on electric cars at 6pm and s huge demand for power all night now instead?


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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 9:51pm
A battery can be trickle charged from a low power solar panel, or tiny mobile type charger, only voltage needs to be correct, incorrect voltage will damage battery.


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 09 Oct 17 at 9:56pm
This thread has made me look at the possibility of an electric car but the only one with a reasonable range and (from what I've seen) fast charging points on motorways are the Teslas but jeepers are they pricey - even to lease and I cant see them being an option for many years when my average journey to open events is >400miles. Even then once you got there where would you charge it back up to get home again? Not even Premier Inn etc are doing that yet.

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OK 2139 & 2148


Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 8:21pm
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/shell-petrol-stations-charge-electric-114358681.html
looks promising


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 28 Nov 17 at 9:28pm
That's all very well but there is a huge lie being told that cannot go on once any significant number of electric cars get into use.

Much as the subsidy for solar panels fell away with broader take up and the road fund tax rules changed as too many met the nil rate.

The cost of electricity for charging cars will have to carry a tax burden to balance that lost from sales of petrol. 






Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 9:14am
As well as the inevitable loss of subsidy, what are the practicalities of trying charge at a motorway service station. How long will you have to wait there? And how big will the queues be if 50% of the traffic coming in wants to charge up, and each charge takes 20min or so? Will they install charging infrastructure at every parking bay? What are the cost and power supply implications there? I wouldn't plan on an electric car anytime soon if you want it for frequent 400m journeys.

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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 9:42am
inductive charging built into the road could solve that https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/road-charges-your-electric-car

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Marconi SC


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 10:30am
Some good reasoned arguments in this article, which is worth a read:
https:////www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27" rel="nofollow - https:////www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27


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Posted By: Eisvogel
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 10:58am
The most practical solution would be exchangeable batteries. A bit like they used to do with horses in the old days of coaches....

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Enterprise 20361 (Eisvogel), Laser 102727 (Halcyon), Laser 121986


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 11:22am
Except the batteries cost upwards of £8000 and weigh several hundred kg. Until sufficiently powerful batteries become light enough and cheap enough the cost of supplying them and maintaining the infrastructure will be prohibitive.

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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Some good reasoned arguments in this article, which is worth a read:
https:////www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27" rel="nofollow - https:////www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27

I found this quote interesting :-

"The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option."


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Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"


Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Except the batteries cost upwards of £8000 and weigh several hundred kg. Until sufficiently powerful batteries become light enough and cheap enough the cost of supplying them and maintaining the infrastructure will be prohibitive.

And therein lies the answer to the other problem....the wholesale change to the light vehicle industry....just think about all those hydro-carbon cars purchased on 'hire purchase' which will be next to valueless...

So I foresee a future in which you may (but will not necessarily) own your vehicle, but the batteries you will lease.  And will therefore be able to operate 'stage coach style'.  You'll pay more for premium batteries / a premium service.

Actually it's interesting that the Tesla concept has a 'One Design' Battery, so that it is not physically difficult to upgrade.

Countries and regions which don't have a developed (stressed?) road network like ours may be better placed to adopt technologies like induction charging on the move.  It may even confer an economic advantage on them.


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

Some good reasoned arguments in this article, which is worth a read:
https:////www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27" rel="nofollow - https:////www.marketwatch.com/story/will-electric-vehicles-really-put-an-end-to-gas-cars-2017-11-27

I found this quote interesting :-

"The biggest obstacle for electric vehicles’ wide adoption is their failure to address an actual problem from the driver’s point of view. Electric vehicles have less range, lower residual value, higher cost—and this includes fuel cost—slow charging time, and are adversely impacted by cold or hot weather, among other issues. In 1917, electric vehicles represented 38% of the U.S. car fleet; there is a reason why they are at 1% today. Internal-combustion cars offer a more-viable transportation option."

That's one of the arguments put forward, true.Which is fine. There are of course other quotes that promote a positive view and engage with the concept of change, that is needed to reduce the impact we have on the biosphere.

For instance : "Analysts today make the same mistake that experts and mainstream analysts made when the first iPhone came out in 2007: Why would anyone want to buy a $600 smartphone when they can buy the $100 Nokia?  https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/nok?mod=MW_story_quote" rel="nofollow - NOK,  The smartphone was a superior product with a lot of functionality beyond making a phone call. Electric vehicles are similarly a superior product to internal-combustion vehicles.

The electric drive train is superior in acceleration, power, etc. The Tesla  https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/tsla?mod=MW_story_quote" rel="nofollow - TSLA, There are two ways in which electric vehicles can/will disrupt the market. No. 1: The replacement of the internal-combustion vehicle by the electric vehicle. By 2020, consumers will be able to buy an electric vehicle with the performance of today’s Porsche  https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/pah3?countrycode=de&mod=MW_story_quote" rel="nofollow - PAH3, 



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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 29 Nov 17 at 3:26pm
I suspect that, as usual, the political push is in the wrong direction. IIR, 30 years ago governments pushed car makers down the catalytic converter route, when lean-burn engines would have been wiser, reducing NO2 for the same emissions level of everything else.

Then we all got pushed at diesels and are now treated as pariahs for complying.

Now government subsidies are for battery engines. But we are about to run short of generating power for 'normal' use never mind replacing every internal combustion engine. The batteries rely on lithium (ever seen the scar on the landscape that is a lithium mine) and most the electricity is generated by hydrocarbons. We of all people know wind is not the answer.

Surely hydrogen powered vehicles ultimately make more joined-up-thinking sense.

And has has been said before, the the government would go bust without car fuel taxes. Whatever cars are ultimately powered by, they will have to find a way to push tax them the same level per mile as we get stung today. The claims we will end up paying a fraction of what we currently do for motor fuel (when around 60% of the price is tax in one form or another) is a blatant lie.


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