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How I learned to forget bandits & enjoy fair play

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Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
Forum Discription: Tell us your sailing stories
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11783
Printed Date: 31 Oct 20 at 5:15pm
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Topic: How I learned to forget bandits & enjoy fair play
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: How I learned to forget bandits & enjoy fair play
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:16am
Thanks to Bas Edmonds and a most informative explanation of the Portsmouth Yardstick system and its workings, we now have a handicap officer and she will attempt to drag H&SSC into the twenty-first century.

I may not still agree with the system for issuing EN's but the rest of it has given me a bit more confidence that our future could be more entertaining shall we say.

We had a great evening, with key sailors from both the Redoubt and Hythe in attendance there was a lively Q & A session and I think everyone left with something from the talk, it was a good night I'd thoroughly recommend it if you can persuade Bas & Debbie to come to your club.

As to the system I do now understand some of the discrepancies, should actually formerly apologise to those PYAG group who I must have offended on many occasion due to ignorance as to their remit. (They are strictly told to ignore anything other than the data and that and that alone is relied on to defend their decisions.) Having said that a degree more transparency might better explain that and other than the fact they are kept in a dark smoke filled room and fed figures, we know nothing officially about them. A thankless task just the same, would I do it under those conditions? Absolutely not. So my sincere apologies to you Gentlemen whoever you are.

As to the rest of it, used properly I can see it could be a great system, we have a few issues as a small club where it could be viewed as personal, but the the flip side of that is the purchase of known Bandit craft could also be seen as personal and for those who accuse poor old Bas of ruining their class when their class was only built precisely because it had allegedly Bandit advantage you could say hard luck to.

My personal grievance however in the purchase and acquisition of new craft remains unsuccessfully explained, a new craft should be measured given there is no data and it is chicken and egg you can't get data unless it is allowed to race it can't race without a number. The simple answer if a measurement based system is not likely to be employed is to give every new craft 1000 for its first 3 months or 12 races then re-adjust and do that four times in its first year, this system could do it, it has the capability.

Anyway we're better equipped going forward than we were yesterday at this time so I'm glad of that, it won't help the Icon and the jury is still out regarding the D0 and other anomalies, but the key fact is you don't worry about them, really you use the system to declare UDI and it takes the blame and that is what we'll strive to use.

Thanks again Bas and sorry again to PYAG bods.

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Replies:
Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:23am
f**k me!!!  It really is Black Friday.  Grumpf admits he is wrong and apologises.
 
These talks that Bas pulls together go a great way in helping people understand how sailing clubs should adopt and use the system.  Its like i have said before its the understanding of how the system shoudl work thats the problem.  Not the system itself!!!!


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:24am
+1 - well done Graeme Thumbs Up


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:49am
Originally posted by Null

f**k me!!!  It really is Black Friday.  Grumpf admits he is wrong and apologises.
 

He will be putting a deposit down for a D Zero this afternoon LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL


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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:33am
Et tu, Graeme?    

Another zombie... ;-)

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:45am
Originally posted by iGRF

 The simple answer if a measurement based system is not likely to be employed is to give every new craft 1000 for its first 3 months or 12 races then re-adjust and do that four times in its first year, this system could do it, it has the capability.

I can see that total de-politicises it, and neutralises any attempt for the system to be abused by a manufacturer for marketing purposes.

As an early adopter, I would be happy racing off an EN of a 1000 for a fixed term/qualification period.  

 It at least puts the ownership of the process firmly into the hands of the PYAG, rather than a manufacturer, and of course nothing to stop a club adjusting locally if the 1000 seems abundantly wrong for a number of their members.

I guess the only concern is what if there simply isn't enough returns, or spread of data from multiple source, to base a number on?  Could a low volume class, maybe raced by just one or two people, permanently be in a qualifying period with a 1000, or are the PYAG forced into giving it a proper EN, with really rather sketchy data to base their decision on?    



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:53am
I didn't say I was wrong, the point of enlightenment was that Bas explained the remit for the PYAG is so rigid, so it is not 'their' (the PYAG's)fault. I still feel the National scale is badly out of kilter, but the point they make, they don't care, it is what it is because of the data, if you don't like it, use the system to produce your own, they will then feed off it if they feel it's relevant. The way it worked in the past was just circular with little exception, since the new system they launched in 2010 (which I must have missed)is more reactive to input.

I'm also guilty (hands up again) with tagging them with the sins of Sailjuice and Sailracer, lumping them all together was wrong, I need to focus my 'hate' in a different direction, it's those b**tards that prejudice new craft, not the RYA or PYAG and more likely them that are influenced by the 'Industrial Class Complex' that certainly rings true.

It won't stop me working on this endless spreadsheet, i nearly got there then threw myself totally out with crew number and righting moment.

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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:04pm
As an early adopter of a 49er, I could live with the 1000 EN, as an Oppie adopter, I'm not sure I'd like it as much.

It's clear that you touched on the adjustment at local level giving rise to, in effect, personal PY's. Given the general dislike of personal PY's expressed in an earlier thread, I'm surprised Grumph felt that this was compensated by bandits having their noses put out of joint.

The PY-scheme with lots of immediate feedback to the RYA/Sailracer site in recent years has shown itself well capable of dealing with bandits (vide the Phantom PY). You don't need to spoil the motivation of the majority to achieve that.

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Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:26pm
Originally posted by iGRF


I'm also guilty (hands up again) with tagging them with the sins of Sailjuice and Sailracer, lumping them all together was wrong, I need to focus my 'hate' in a different direction, it's those b**tards that prejudice new craft, not the RYA or PYAG and more likely them that are influenced by the 'Industrial Class Complex' that certainly rings true.

Hang on where have you got that from ???

SailRacer runs the PYS Online system for the RYA and I personally sit on PYaG

We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series

Nothing to hide

For the umpteen time SailRacer DO NOT set handicaps,  our systems certainly help in the decision making process and we end up using the numbers at events we run.

If you want to see some of what SailRacer, does check out my presentation at last week's International Sailing Summit
http://goo.gl/YPNXQr" rel="nofollow - http://goo.gl/YPNXQr

I actually agree there needs to be a better method of handling new craft,  and have made a few suggestions on how.  


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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

As an early adopter of a 49er, I could live with the 1000 EN, as an Oppie adopter, I'm not sure I'd like it as much.

There's a solution to that. Allow the boats to race, use the first 12 races (or whatever number is decided on) to set an initial handicap, but don't count the results of those races towards any series placings, or whatever. So you have to do it for fun to start with if you are an early adopter - which is surely what we all do it for anyway Wink


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by PeterG

  So you have to do it for fun to start with if you are an early adopter - which is surely what we all do it for anyway Wink

precisely - a 'qualifying period' - in fact, make that qualifying period the number of returns the RYA receive for any given class.  No point wasting the PYAG time for a boat which is essential a custom built jobby for one or a very few individual sailors.


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 12:55pm
Except that an estimated PY (and I'm content we could get within 3% points in most cases) would at least give you something to race for in those early races.  Six Sundays is a long time to just be sailing around some can.

To keep the conspiracy theory people happy, we could knock 3% off initially so that the error will be to their benefit.  I'd rather race my Oppie on 1610 than 1000 or no EN at all.


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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 1:11pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

[

SailRacer runs the PYS Online system for the RYA and I personally sit on PYaG

We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series

Nothing to hide

Glad to hear it Simon.

So can you please help me understand why both the 10.2 and 8.4 rigs have been given a PN of 988 for the SailJuice series when the RYA official numbers issued last March were 988 and 1000 respectively.

FWIW I'd be pretty sure the volume of data used to get to 1000 for the 8.4 would be substantially greater than the 988 for the 10.2 too, as most now use the former most of the time.

I was not unhappy to use my big rig at the Draycote Drift, but if the forecast is for a breeze for another event, I'll feel a bit put upon I reckon.

Do you want us as a class to turn up or not?

Clive


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Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 1:30pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

[

SailRacer runs the PYS Online system for the RYA and I personally sit on PYaG

We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series

Nothing to hide

Glad to hear it Simon.

So can you please help me understand why both the 10.2 and 8.4 rigs have been given a PN of 988 for the SailJuice series when the RYA official numbers issued last March were 988 and 1000 respectively.

FWIW I'd be pretty sure the volume of data used to get to 1000 for the 8.4 would be substantially greater than the 988 for the 10.2 too, as most now use the former most of the time.

I was not unhappy to use my big rig at the Draycote Drift, but if the forecast is for a breeze for another event, I'll feel a bit put upon I reckon.

Do you want us as a class to turn up or not?

Clive

Again SailRacer does not set the handicaps,  for the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series this is done by the Great Lakes Group,  article here on their methodology :
http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?id=39573&eventid=195890" rel="nofollow - http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?id=39573&eventid=195890

These are not RYA numbers 


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Online Sailing Results, GPS Tracking & Event Management


Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

[

SailRacer runs the PYS Online system for the RYA and I personally sit on PYaG

We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series

Nothing to hide

Glad to hear it Simon.

So can you please help me understand why both the 10.2 and 8.4 rigs have been given a PN of 988 for the SailJuice series when the RYA official numbers issued last March were 988 and 1000 respectively.

FWIW I'd be pretty sure the volume of data used to get to 1000 for the 8.4 would be substantially greater than the 988 for the 10.2 too, as most now use the former most of the time.

I was not unhappy to use my big rig at the Draycote Drift, but if the forecast is for a breeze for another event, I'll feel a bit put upon I reckon.

Do you want us as a class to turn up or not?

Clive

Again SailRacer does not set the handicaps,  for the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series this is done by the Great Lakes Group,  article here on their methodology :
http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?id=39573&eventid=195890" rel="nofollow - http://events.sailracer.org/eventsites/content.asp?id=39573&eventid=195890

These are not RYA numbers 

And yes we do want you all to turn up 





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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:02pm
And it all started off so well......

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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:15pm
To speak up for the Great Lakes people, they seem to have taken onboard my comments about the unsuitability of using the class-recommended V3k handicap for the Laser 3000.  3ks of any hue can now attend SailJuice with a fair chance.

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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:17pm
Thats a bit harsh Clive.  Whilst I agree with you I thought that it was just one class again now the 100's?  It was good to see a couple of you out at Draycote as previous years you all had hibernated over the winter.  But that could be why the handicap is fixed to one number.  Its also worth noting that if the 100 has two numbers then surely it is 2 classes and as such if you entered the one regatta with a 10.2 and one with a 8.4 thats two seperate enteries and would not count for the overall prize.


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:20pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

To speak up for the Great Lakes people, they seem to have taken onboard my comments about the unsuitability of using the class-recommended V3k handicap for the Laser 3000.  3ks of any hue can now attend SailJuice with a fair chance.
 
Did they not allow the V3k to use the L3k number in the past.  I remember D&D nearly winning the bloody mary off a frankly mental PY


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by Medway Maniac

To speak up for the Great Lakes people, they seem to have taken onboard my comments about the unsuitability of using the class-recommended V3k handicap for the Laser 3000.  3ks of any hue can now attend SailJuice with a fair chance.
 
Did they not allow the V3k to use the L3k number in the past.  I remember D&D nearly winning the bloody mary off a frankly mental PY

Yes, D&D used, or rather were given, like it or not, the L3k PY, but then subsequently all 3ks were given the class-recommended number for the V3k, which was an impossible target for the average L3k sailor )tho' I guess Ben A. might have made things happen in an L3k if he slimmed down!)  Sublime to ridiculous, or vice versa....

But it's all sorted now.


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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 2:43pm
glad to see that in the four years since its launch, the RS100 has finally put to bed the quiet discontent over PYs and rig sizes.  

The class has effectively made themselves one-design- so a few folks have a legacy 'big' sail for light winds... sorry boys, but until those folks stop using them, then your 'average' PY ought to reflect what is actually happening with your class, singular.

Well done Great Lakes - looks absolutely right to me.




Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 4:12pm
So, genuine question. Is the 100 a single class now with one PY, or is it as it always was - two classes with 2 PY.

With regards the PYAG, I respect the work they do greatly. But the process need not, should not, stop at the number crunching. Why can't these purely data based numbers the be passed to a committee of grey beards to approve or modify. Not on subjective taste but PY should be a forecast for the next year, not a record of the previous one. So if the I14s take some lead out, or Merlin's use a longer kite pole, or Blazes switch to a carbon mast, or 200s adopt a square head mainsail why not be proactive and set an adjustment when the rule change occurs. An estimated change is better than no change at all.

But well done GRF for organising the briefing and Bas for actually entering the lion' den!

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 5:06pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey




I personally sit on PYaG
We also run the GJW Direct SailJuice Winter Series
Nothing to hide



What!!

And you don't think that's just an incy wincy bit of a massive conflict of interest?

Given your admission you penalise new classes deliberately.

Which I pointed out to Bas last night and he denied.

Plausible deniability, but makes your position untenable in this argument don't you think?

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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 5:54pm

I think IGRF may be thinking that  'Sailracer'  'Sailjuice' and 'Great Lakes' are in some way one and the same thing in whole or in part. 

The  'Sailjuice' Series groups together a number of traditional winter handicap events (plus a couple of newer ones) in a series with their ‘Sailjuice’ name on it ...... 'Sailracer' (now don’t get confused) are often found adding trackers and providing a web based entry system for the SJ events ... and the events themselves (run by the host clubs note !) use the 'Great Lakes' handicap numbers.  The  GL handicappers  are NOT ‘Sailjuice’ ... or  ‘Sailracer.   Get it ?

Well that's how I see it anyway  !  Someone correct me if wrong ...

I too would like to see a better handling for 'new' classes led by the RYA.  Measurement based assessment is however very difficult to justify ... who decides on the weighting of each factor for example ?   Measuring for handicap assessment assumes every aspect of each design is primarily there for maximum speed ....  and it gets extremely over-complex if dealing  with some factors such as hull form.  Assessment simply has to be results based ... in some form.

The GL approach has got Icon closer to a reasonable handicap number ... and relatively quickly imo (2-3 years).  Answer for new classes ? – Race at your clubs, race in the major handicaps, accept in the short term an (inevitable) tough number ... it can and will change.  Today my club races Icon off 990, last year its GL number was 1000.. this year this was  adjusted slightly because of the issuing of an EN figure of 969.  So this year the GL number is also 990... in time I expect the ‘official’ EN/PN to be somewhere between 990 and 1000  as well (and certainly not the current 969 !).   It is not a major problem anyway if our clubs make the changes they should do anyway and most, if not all, of our ‘away’ handicap racing is under the GL approach.    

Anyway Friday now ...  Blessed relief.  Time to forget all this B*****s  and get back  into Icon sorting mode after a long enforced gap... Starting this Sunday I also need to remember to talk to a crew (remember ‘nicely’) and not crash tack etc without giving notice.    Now that is much more important.  

If you can do something similar !

Mike L.





Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by Null

Thats a bit harsh Clive.  Whilst I agree with you I thought that it was just one class again now the 100's?  It was good to see a couple of you out at Draycote as previous years you all had hibernated over the winter.  But that could be why the handicap is fixed to one number.  Its also worth noting that if the 100 has two numbers then surely it is 2 classes and as such if you entered the one regatta with a 10.2 and one with a 8.4 thats two seperate enteries and would not count for the overall prize.

Is it? Although I confess to not understanding how its the SailJuice Series but "Great Lakes" get the woes over yardsticks. Who writes the SIs?

According to the RYA, it is two classes - it lists 2 PNs one for each rig. And that's pretty much how the class rules go too, rightly or wrongly (and to give James something to stir about at every opportunity) Does a Laser radial sail off the same as a standard rig?

If the 8.4 had been given the standard number (and I was that bothered about the series) I'd have used the 8.4 last week (and likely my result would have been worse)

The stats/system says the 8.4 sails to 1000. Would anyone else in the fleet want to give up 12 points for an admin issue?

Just sayin'

PS No hibernation, I only stop sailing in the winter if the pond freezes, but true I tend not to travel much


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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 6:08pm
Crossed in the post Mike. Thanks.

And well done last Sunday


-------------
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Posted By: Simon Lovesey
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by blaze720

 

I think IGRF may be thinking that  'Sailracer'  'Sailjuice' and 'Great Lakes' are in some way one and the same thing in whole or in part.  

The  'Sailjuice' Series groups together a number of traditional winter handicap events (plus a couple of newer ones) in a series with their ‘Sailjuice’ name on it ...... 'Sailracer' (now don’t get confused) are often found adding trackers and providing a web based entry system for the SJ events ... and the events themselves (run by the host clubs note !) use the 'Great Lakes' handicap numbers.  The  GL handicappers  are NOT ‘Sailjuice’ ... or  ‘Sailracer.   Get it ?

Well that's how I see it anyway  !  Someone correct me if wrong ...  


Spot on and also think that the handling of new designs need to be improved

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 10:50pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

It's clear that you touched on the adjustment at local level giving rise to, in effect, personal PY's. Given the general dislike of personal PY's expressed in an earlier thread, I'm surprised Grumph felt that this was compensated by bandits having their noses put out of joint.


They are talking of introducing personal handicap dual scoring next year, he also indicated that they do have a windspeed formula in the system but the feeling is that it would be pretty impossible to use, where would you set it, given the humber of events where the wind starts of at one point and finishes at another and where do you measure it?

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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 28 Nov 14 at 11:00pm
... and who dares to measure/determine it?!

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