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Today I believe I sailed my boat to its handicap

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
Forum Discription: Tell us your sailing stories
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11703
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Topic: Today I believe I sailed my boat to its handicap
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Today I believe I sailed my boat to its handicap
Date Posted: 05 Oct 14 at 5:39pm
Lost by 6 secs, but only because I went the wrong way on the 2nd leg, had that not happened the natural order would have been restored.

My handicap 1024. Winning boat on handicap Laser 1088, Over the water Hornet, Contender,4000, me, then Lasers.

Other boats Hornet, Contender, Lasers 1 & 4000,

Wind Offshore Northerly 0-7 mph, tide 1-3 kts.

It would be interesting to me if you could all document when you felt the same, i.e. you sailed your particular boat to its handicap and against whom your were racing at the time, oh and wether they happened to have floats attached to the top of their masts.

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Replies:
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Oct 14 at 7:56pm
The 2000 enjoys (well, I suppose it enjoys it, it doesn't say) class racing at WSC.

In view of the boat's preference to float upside down, the fleet at one time almost (not quite unanimously) agreed to make it a fleet rule that everyone, including some pretty good sailors, carried a float at the top of their mast.  What an indictment of the 2k's buoyancy arrangement...


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 05 Oct 14 at 9:10pm
My boat often sails to handicap. Just wish I was in it at the time...

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 05 Oct 14 at 10:20pm
If I get a good result, I sailed my boat to its handicap but nobody else did.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 6:22am
My boat sails to her handicap all the time. Maybe I should lend her to someone else who would be less of a handicap...


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 9:38am
I once sailed my Phantom to its handicap.  I was elated -  on cloud nine.  The corrected time reflected the fact that I'd sailed far better than I normal do.  I think I came third out of about 10 of us.  

Sadly the buggers in the RS300s just said it was a bandit boat with an unfeasibly generous handicap.  

What a buzz kill... 

I sold the boat the following week and bought a 300 instead.  If you can't beat them, join them.  


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 10:05am
Well another Blaze showed up this week in the hands of our better Phantom sailor, I fully expected a thrashing from him but he got wrong sided as the big badly started fast boats came through in the iffy shifty conditions.

But I was pleased to keep them all at bay for a while having lost the start yet watched as they all made classic wrong decisions in shifts and the other Phantom and I rounded 1 & 2 then he also got stuffed at a mark whereas my lake training kept the inside line on the buoy open and full water rights at the end of the 1st reach, and he got big boat buried, at the end of the next beat I still held it overall, so immediately had a snr moment sailed the top reach again instead of going down the run...

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Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 5:03pm
I think i usually sail the streaker to or above its handicap, however even after 14 or so points being taken off its PY in the past 2 years, it is a bit of a bandit on the fairly small lake I sail on. I suspect the handicap is about right on open water, but nothing matches it in really shifty conditions.

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Streaker 1837
RS600 638
Cherub 3201


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 6:00pm
Originally posted by robin34024

I think i usually sail the streaker to or above its handicap, however even after 14 or so points being taken off its PY in the past 2 years, it is a bit of a bandit on the fairly small lake I sail on. I suspect the handicap is about right on open water, but nothing matches it in really shifty conditions.


You can say that again, the day I beat a Streaker on the lake I sail at and it hasn't happened yet despite 6 minute leads, I really will consider I've sail it to its handicap, but I don't think it's ever going to happen, you could bring the nations finest, put them in that EPS and me in a Streaker and I guarantee they'd lose.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 6:30pm
Shock horror boat suited to water wins a race...

Funny how different pieces of water seem to gather different little boats, though. For me, a lake like GRF describes would suit a boat with a larger sail than the Streaker has. For experience, I'd be surprised if a Firefly ot Britiah Moth wouldn't be even better - maybe even the Lightning, but the Streaker is the boat of choice, and therefore sailed by the best people, and therefore becomes thought of as a bandit by those who can't see what the real problem is.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 6:47pm
I actually don't think of a Streaker as a Bandit, Streakers have been sailing that lake ever since the days I first went there to learn about wind shifts on my Original Windsurfer back in the late seventies. In fact 'they' rate the Streaker at 1174 because of that even bigger Bandit the Miracle in the hands of Pancho Villa and his brother.

What is wrong is the boat I use being a bit of an Anti-Bandit so to speak, yet as indicated earlier it can be sailed to its handicap on the sea, I just wanted to read about other conditions in which other boats do well, well not even well, just what the handicap says they should do.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 7:40pm
Fair enough - Yes, I think the Firefly sails to its handicap on the lake. The Lightning not quite there - actually, that probably means it is about right. Minisail doesn't have a real handicap, so no clue there, really.

Of the boats I race against, the Phantom still sails to handicap a lot of the time, despite it being hammered - it just doesn't have to turn out to win any more. Our eps's did OK on the previous handicap - the current one is a gift in the majority of UK inland conditions - force 1-3. Solos do well, too. Mind, the above classes are sailed by people who know how to race, which always helps.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 8:52pm
So how long would you guess the average leg is at your lake?

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 9:24pm
2-300 yards, maybe? Can be as much as 1/2 a mile, I think. I confess I've never really thought of it in those terms. 

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 9:39pm
Well it's what makes all the difference to the handicap system which is after all a time based device, so faster boats that cover more ground are restricted if there isn't enough time to cover that ground.

I have a theory, but in order to apply it would take a lot of data and course sizes.

Sea courses and Big Lake courses have longer legs, small lakes have what I call 'two minute' legs and more transitions.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 10:25pm
Quite right - a boat which is good on corners will always be a better bet on a puddle with lots of marks. That is all part of a boat being "right" for a location. The EPS is pretty low rocker and has that loo seat on board, so turning corners fast isn't what it is best at. Straight line speed in planing conditions and it is over the horizon (only figuratively at our club, of course - in reality it is coming up behind you ready to lap you...).

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 06 Oct 14 at 10:30pm
Surely Redoubt is pretty atypical for small ponds, in that it is very near the coast, with no big stands of trees around it.

http://www.redoubtsc.org.uk/location/" rel="nofollow - http://www.redoubtsc.org.uk/location/

One of these days Grumph, you will acquire one of these boats that you deem a bandit and prove your point by winning a series.  Or maybe not; I seem to recall you had a Laser 3000 at one time...


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 8:26am
Looks like a lovely place to sail. How big is it? The photos make it look large enough to stretch the legs of a small performance boat like the EPS, but they can be deceptive!

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 9:01am
I don't actually want to win a series using a bandit, pretty much anyone can do that, as has been amply demonstrated to me.

I'd be content to sail my own boat to its handicap in a range of conditions.

Which was why I was attracted to the Zero, it was a boat I felt I'd be capable of achieving that goal, until 'they' shifted the posts.

Redoubt has tree's and wind patterns attributed to them, not as many as some small waters, but they are there and if you use it to its extremities which you surely must to ensure legs long enough to get a decent course, then inevitably marks get set in wind shadows. They also have the added challenge of the odd submerged wreck, or underwater obstruction to graunch your plate on, one comfort I do have is the sure knowledge that by now I would have split the daggerboard case on my brand new Zero, as I've managed to do on the EPS, hitting the wreck.

I sailed a laser 3000 with my daughter until she got crashed into, ironically by the very chap who won the series in a Streaker recently, she never sailed again.

So my requirement remains a boat with an average handicap and preferably a kick back plate which is why I'm hoping for a demo in a Solution shortly to see what they are like, somebody has been kind enough to contact me from their class.

However I still want to understand the maths of this current PY system by doing as much reverse engineering as my addled brain can achieve in search of a formulaic solution.

Edit to rupert 44 acres and the best I've achieved is a 2nd at 1024 and I've won at the new handicap they set to 1060, but it felt like I'd cheated, but then all the other handicaps were uplifted as well so I don't really know what's going on. They sail the Laser off 1100 and the Streaker is now 1174 in some compromise to deal with the Miracle, which seems strange to me, since it is the offender, they should drop it rather than raise everyone else's, it's either supreme Miracle arrogance in that they deem everyone else as not as good sailors as them (there is an element of truth to this) or the computer spits it out, I have never stayed long enough to note the results, the bread knife delights in reading them out to me from the paper to howls of laughter from the daughters of darkness the following week, or my ex windsurfing mates delight in my achievements being thrashed by the 't**sers down the lake'.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 9:16am
Sounds like you need a boat in the similar sped range to the others out there. Solution might be there (just at the top end, which may give you clear air while still having an idea of how you are doing in real life, not just on the spreadsheet. The other boat with a centreboard which would fit in (though I don't think you'd beat a Streaker off 1174) would be the Lightning 368. Centreboard, lifting rudder, tracked sail.

However, if the adulation of your peers (or atleast avoidance of mockery by your family and "friends" is required, then I'm afraid I have no idea what he answer is, except to sail the eps off 1060 (after all, they will never know) and get some decent spreadsheet resuts. Or get the powers that be to stop sending the results to the newspaper. Do other clubs do that?


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 9:49am
There was a brand new Lightning 368 at the Southampton boat show and you're right, it ticked all the boxes for that Lake, there might be one at our club I could get my hands on for the winter as well, the helm of the RS500 boys has one, but it does so abysmally on the sea even in the hands of a very good sailor who owned it before (ex youth champ gone grey)I never really considered it.

There must be something other than the bloody Laser that can work equally well on sea and inland.

Oh and inter family 'mockery' is part and parcel of life for me until they can find a suitable 'home' they tell me, something went terribly wrong in their upbringing.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 9:56am
There are people who race them on the sea, but I agree, I'd not want to really in the kind of waves you seem to get at Hythe. While I'm sure it would cope, especially with the new style masts, I'm sure there are more fun boats out there.

Maybe that is the secret of the Laser - it is equally at home pretty much everywhere. The downside of that is that you'll be hard pressed to do well against the specialst sea or inland boats.

From what I've seen of the Streaker, it seems to fill a similar niche for a smaller boat. Got that daggerboard to cope with, but otherwise I've seen them going really well on open water, and at Redoubt they seem to go well inland.




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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:04am
Originally posted by iGRF

Edit to rupert 44 acres and the best I've achieved is a 2nd at 1024 and I've won at the new handicap they set to 1060, but it felt like I'd cheated, but then all the other handicaps were uplifted as well so I don't really know what's going on.

That, in a nutshell, is precisely why sailing committees need to be very careful before they start adjusting PY's as the RYA advocates they should do. Very quickly nobody feels like there's been a worthy winner - unless the winner's PY has been adjusted more harshly than the rest, of course.

Even then, if all the numbers have been played with, everybody's probably long-since lost faith in the system, so they don't care about the results - which may be a good thing: people sailing just for the pleasure of it, but I wonder how long they'd keep at it?

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:08am
You should try an RS300 Graeme- it would take a few weeks to get over the 'wtf is this all about' and it would engage windsurfing brain more than dinghy brain at times- think planing exits from carve gybes.  I only sailed mine inland, but the guys who took them up to Prestwick and across to Filey swore blind they were amazing in waves too.  

Plus you could switch down to the A-Rig when it's windy (okay class rules would strictly speaking prevent that, but sod that...)

Definitely a boat that is not crossed off my list.


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:16am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

You should try an RS300 Graeme-


I have thanks, I established base camp before the assault on the North face of the starboard gunwale , it is without doubt the singularly worse contrivance known to sailing mankind, the designer should be shot, anyone who sails one committed, or at the very least we should stage a class 'intervention' put them away somewhere, kind of isolated, consider them a form of sailing ebola.

No - don't speak I'm not listening <handsover ears> nah nah nah nah go away mental person!

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:24am
As I said, it would take a few weeks to get over the 'Wtf is this all about' feeling...  but I appreciate it's not for the impatient.  

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:36am
Originally posted by kneewrecker

As I said, it would take a few weeks to climb up the side...  but I appreciate it's not for the impatient.  


ftfy

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:40am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by kneewrecker

As I said, it would take a few weeks to climb up the side...  but I appreciate it's not for the impotent.  


ftfy


ftfy x 2


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:42am
There are pills you can take for impotency, but even hetracil isn't going to help me sail a 300.

Step ladders maybe..

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 10:55am
personally I found dakine stomp studs were good for traction....  I cleared out a warehouse of them when some dude had a fire sale running.






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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 12:44pm
In view of all we were saying on the OK thread, the 300 does look like a nice boat.  

If only it weren't so tippy.  A tad more waterline beam would help, but would make it slower.  I wonder if a small footwell would help - as I recall, standing up was critical to the early stages of familiarisation, and getting down off that double-floor would settle things down somewhat.  I'd take the hassle of a little bailer in exchange.


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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 07 Oct 14 at 4:27pm
sounds like a D-Zero that ;-)

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Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 09 Oct 14 at 1:11pm
My boat always sails to its handicap, unfortunately I sometimes don't Wink

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Largs Sailing Club. D-One GBR 57

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