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Grafham D-Zero Demo Day

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
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URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11532
Printed Date: 01 Oct 20 at 12:17pm
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Topic: Grafham D-Zero Demo Day
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Grafham D-Zero Demo Day
Date Posted: 29 Jun 14 at 8:11pm
Got a chance to help Rodney out and see what we'd be likely in for at Hythe next week with our demo on Saturday, and by coincidence RS were also up there, so I had the chance to sail both the Aero and the DZero, the one straight after the other.

They are both amazing boats, hell of a choice. I tried the D Zero first, it wasn't that breezy, but enough to get the feel for how she'd perform under race conditions down at our lake, met a Laser out on the water, sailed through it like a knife through butter, up and downhill. It fits like a Glove, every bit as balanced as my EPS, but much nicer to sail, the controls all in a better position and a lot of boat to slide up and down, the rig responds to the controls perfectly, lovely sail cut, loads of kicker range, in haul works like a windsurfer rig, and the downhaul is also familiar. I loved it, then I tried the Aero.

I went for the 9, I like a bit of power and it wasn't that windy, helped lift it in, hell even the damn trailer floats when it comes off. As a retail product, it's much more polished, lots of little bells and whistles reminds me of what the difference between a Pryde and North sail used to be like in windsurfing, lots of window dressing. I particularly liked the little blue button to release the rudder, then there's the wine cooler.. (a little recess to take a water bottle).

Both boats have been having some issues regarding getting back in after a capsize, the Zero hasn't got anything to grip at the gunwale, (they're going to sort that with some grip tape) and the Aero they advised me should it go over I needed to get straight to the middle of the boat, no hanging about on the side or it'll just tip straight over again, I wasn't going to try that anyway since winter had returned that far oop North.

I got in, flipped down the rudder (I still prefer a flip down rudder even though the Zero's blades do slide up and down easily) dropped the plate and sheeted in and with a kick in the pants she flew away from the beach, a lot more powerful, the extra metre of sail area probably combined with a bit of a fresher gust. The first thing you notice is the noise and that there's quite a lot of boat out front, with the Zero there's quite a lot of boat behind and the mast is further back, the Aero is shorter and up wind you can tell, its a bit of a game keeping it in the 'groove' I think it'll be even more of a problem in chop, then again the Zero is going to soak you, I went through a rescue boat wake and it just knifed through the wake taking the top straight into the boat, the Aero bounced over.

Off wind if I had to call it, the Aero's got the edge, difficult to say as the only time I got the one next to the other the wind had dropped and I had to pump back and the Zero won that one. Back to the Aero I chucked it about off wind, Gybe and Gybe, Tack and Tack, it's a delight, what a modern boat should be.

I had to take it back folk were beginning to arrive and I was supposed to be demo donkey for today..

One thing, I'm now the proverbial Irishman in a dustbin being told to pee in the corner when it comes to choosing between these two.

Some more stuff happened but I'll post it later with some pics, it turned out to be a great day..


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Replies:
Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 29 Jun 14 at 10:25pm
Good to hear you enjoyed both boats and had a good day. What's this blue button thing?

Have you knocked the Solo fantasy on the head?





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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jun 14 at 8:58am
The Solo fantasy mutated into a Streaker disorder, but I'm well and truly over that now , and I can't wait to try the Zero on the sea this coming weekend.

This is the blue button, apparently they fit this to a few of their boats (RS) these days, I think it may be a Selden component, but don't quote me for certain, I need to find out, I love it and I loved their new foils. RS have usually not exactly excelled in the foil department in my experience, but these new ones were nice.



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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jun 14 at 9:59am
Some more pics, all a bit gloomy but then that's what it's like up North, it's not so far up that your Nose bleeds and you can't understand anyone and Grafham is always a well organised club with lots going on. We met the Commodore, seems a good bloke and was omnipresent meeting and greeting. There were lots of things going on, Challengers racing, some other boats that looked so lumbering I wouldn't want to know what they were, the only thing missing were folk wanting to try out the boats we and RS had brought along. We had a couple early on just wanted to confirm they'd done the right thing and both went away with grins as wide as mine, but by lunchtime we were standing around. Then it started to rain, the wind squalled and we hurried to drop the sails.


All set up and nobody there to use them, what a crying waste.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 30 Jun 14 at 10:16am
That is what you get when you organise a club exclusive day....

To be fair given your review I would expect the Aero 9 to be a little better offwind as it does have a bigger sail..... (just my 2p).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jun 14 at 10:54am
If that had been a kite or windsurfing demo, we'd have charged the club, that event must have cost the companies something north of five hundred quid I reckon. RS had two guys, the reason I was there was as a stand in for one of Rodneys chaps who like Rodney had had a recent bereavement or sickness in the family.

Rodney also had the D1 Nationals or Europeans going on up at Brightlingsea so a lot on his plate, I don't think he was particularly happy that RS had 'crashed' his demo, personally I think it's a good thing to have competing suppliers along, and I also think as a salesman it's a good idea, you can close a deal when both brands/boards/boats are there, if the customer can use the objection that he wants to try the other product it's difficult to overcome that objection and you lose the opportunity to close the deal, but then these guys don't quite put the pressure on that other leisure sectors might, nor can they supply the demand they already have I guess.

Back to the differences, after lunch I was standing around quite literally shivering, at one time trying to persuade Rodney to wind it up and ship out, but a lull in the rain a few more hardy souls had him back to the beach, so I though it's a shame to miss the wind I'll suit up and have one more go in the Zero in a breeze which was probably about three to four and approaching my normal control threshold in the EPS.

As I left the beach, I noticed the familiar noise of a race sequence and the minute gun being fired off, I also noticed an Aero 7 up at the pin end in the hands of what looked like a pretty competent lass, so I thought I'd tag along behind to see what we're capable of. I had no idea what the course was or where any marks were and she was a tacking fool, which reminded me of another lass down our lake and the way she sailed, banging anything that remotely resembled a shift, sure enough I found out later she's a Europe sailor, no idea what her name is, but I closed a bit up wind took out the bottom two thirds of the fleet and by the time it was obvious which mark they were going to round I was almost in touch, she went round first followed by some sort of cat thing which then chucked up its kite and was gone.

She then got a puff and vanished, it flew down the 1st deep reach, nothing I could do, the sheet loads are so light, nothing to grab to pump with and not quite enough to work the wavelets, round the gybe the next reach was tighter and we made back a bit, then up wind I'm grabbing back ground, but not enough to close and round she went again and off and so it continued until the end, she had it downwind, I made ground on the windward leg. Bear in mind it's my first outing in any sort of wind and normally in this I'd probably be swimming in the EPS and I had no idea where I should sit so the fact I was doing what I was convinced me this is the boat for me, I even slipped off my perch and did some of that hiking sh*t.
I was enjoying it so much despite the foul weather I stayed out for another go, missed the start again but this time there was a Laser and Europe girl was nowhere to be seen, after sailing behind them all off the line on Port down the wrong end of the line, only the Cat had me at the windward mark and try as I may the same thing happened I'd catch him up wind he'd chuck up his kite and leave me off wind, so it was a 3rd and a 2nd and I was happy with that given my normal lack of competence when the wind blows more than 10 knots.

My order for the D Zero remains in place, there's no way I'd have held the Aero 9 and nor would I have caught anything up in an Aero 7 so it kind of comes down to the 'one boat does it all' rig size, what I'd really like is both boats but it's been a state secret up until now that I'm even thinking of a 4th boat, I may have to sell the EPS...

Tale of two noses

One goes through, the other bounces over.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 30 Jun 14 at 3:17pm
On a lighter note, I had to help unload the RS trailer because one of them was so cold he couldn't get his hands out of his pockets..

And they didn't even have the decency to fill this thing with anything that might prove a bit more bracing in the near arctic conditions..


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Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by jeffers


That is what you get when you organise a club exclusive day....


It was actually a club open day at Grafham Water Sailing Club on Saturday - anyone could have turned up and taken the D-Zero or RS-Aero for a test sail.


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by iGRF

The Solo fantasy mutated into a Streaker disorder, but I'm well and truly over that now , and I can't wait to try the Zero on the sea this coming weekend.

This is the blue button, apparently they fit this to a few of their boats (RS) these days, I think it may be a Selden component, but don't quote me for certain, I need to find out, I love it and I loved their new foils. RS have usually not exactly excelled in the foil department in my experience, but these new ones were nice.

Never seen one of those, neat little fitting that.  Does anyone know if they get bunged up with salt and sand?


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by sandgrounder

Originally posted by jeffers


That is what you get when you organise a club exclusive day....


It was actually a club open day at Grafham Water Sailing Club on Saturday - anyone could have turned up and taken the D-Zero or RS-Aero for a test sail.


Did they tell anyone else that?


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 8:21pm
Originally posted by craiggo

Originally posted by sandgrounder

Originally posted by jeffers


That is what you get when you organise a club exclusive day....


It was actually a club open day at Grafham Water Sailing Club on Saturday - anyone could have turned up and taken the D-Zero or RS-Aero for a test sail.


Did they tell anyone else that?


Certainly the sailing club advertised it. I would assume that the respective manufacturers promoted it. I don't know what more to say really, sometimes in life you need to look out for things and not simply expect everything you desire to drop into your inbox.



Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 8:41pm
I was told it was a members only day!  People don't just make these things up.

But I do agree with you, people shouldn't expect things to drop into their inbox.m so I would think a club the size of grafham would publicise it's open day?


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 8:43pm
It doesn't personally bother me either way, just a shame to hear that more people weren't there.

As an avid sailing geek who likes to be aware of what's going on, I have to admit to having seen very little in way of advertising for the event.

From what I've seen, all the other demo days at smaller clubs have had sufficient numbers to keep the boats on the water all day, with little advertising from the manufacturers.

So either Grafham don't have many interested parties within the club, in which case why hold a demo day unless you are going to advertise wider, or the manufacturers/dealers assumed that Grafham would draw people in for them as its often touted as being one of the best inland waterways (albeit a tad soulless).


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 01 Jul 14 at 9:26pm
I'm a Grafham member, I knew about the open day because they borrowed a Sailability boat to give rides in.  I didn't know about the demos until the last minute.  For the previously arranged one they actually circulated the information after the demo was meant to happen.  The previous demo was intended for members only.

The Challengers were racing in their annual regatta, they sail out of Grafham Water Centre next door.


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the same, but different...



Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:16am
Such a shame I did not know about this until after the event, especially after not being able to make the new date for the hunts demo. I would have been there in a shot.

Oh well, such is life. Cry


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 8:16am
Originally posted by craiggo



As an avid sailing geek who likes to be aware of what's going on, I have to admit to having seen very little in way of advertising for the event.

From what I've seen, all the other demo days at smaller clubs have had sufficient numbers to keep the boats on the water all day, with little advertising from the manufacturers.

So either Grafham don't have many interested parties within the club, in which case why hold a demo day unless you are going to advertise wider, or the manufacturers/dealers assumed that Grafham would draw people in for them as its often touted as being one of the best inland waterways (albeit a tad soulless).


"Having seen very little...." - you either saw something or you didn't.

I understand an earlier RS-Aero demo day, subsequently cancelled, was advertised as members only. I have no idea why that was, and would see it as a perfect opportunity to attract potential new members.

Anybody with a serious interest in the D-Zero or RS-Aero would have had little difficulty finding out about the open demo day on Saturday 29th June, it was advertised in a timely manner and both manufacturers were obviously aware of it.

In the event, Sunday was a significantly better day in terms of breeze (10 - 14kts) and the D-Zeros were on the water continuously from 10:00 until 17:00. This resulted in 3 orders being placed for the D-Zero, one of them being for myself. I suspect that Devoti Sailing / Suntouched Sailboats, at least, are pleased with the return on their investment over the week-end.

You are indeed correct concerning Grafham Water being a great stretch of inland water, with the ability to set 3 championship courses concurrently, and with limited topographical impact.



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 8:29am
Originally posted by sandgrounder

 I understand an earlier RS-Aero demo day, subsequently cancelled, was advertised as members only. I have no idea why that was.

Because this is what people who enquired about booking a time slot were told. I myself was told this initially. It was then later changed before it got cancelled.

It was the same for the earlier D-Zero day (which also got cancelled I believe).

Good to hear the startings of an embryonic fleet at Grafham though. I shall have to bring mine over when it arrives and when there are some others there (if the other 2 are going to be local boats).

Plus if you look at the Y&Y banner the 7th June date for Grafham for the D-Zero does clearly state Members Only.

As it is it seems that a great day was had by all. Any idea how many Aeros were ordered or did people go for the D-Zero?


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 8:38am
Originally posted by jeffers


Plus if you look at the Y&Y banner the 7th June date for Grafham for the D-Zero does clearly state Members Only


Maybe, but that was cancelled, so a moot point. Saturday 28th June was an open demo day, end of story.

All 3 D-Zeros will be based at Grafham Water, and there is significant interest to build on that initial batch. You would be very welcome to come and join us over the winter, very attractive winter rates.


Posted By: Punky
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 9:30am
Great news on the new boat SG!
 
I have seen D Zero demo dates advertised but I haven't seen any UK Aero dates published anywhere.  I'm not sure how anyone knows how/where to try one - am I blind?  I even had a deposit down on one and still didn't get any info.  Yes, I know I could have contacted them, but I'm not sure the punter should have to do the chasing!
 
At least Grafham allowed club members to try the boats (and the public too!).  Chew decided that it wasn't in the interest of existing fleets to allow the boats to be demo'ed there.


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 9:38am
Originally posted by Punky

 
I have seen D Zero demo dates advertised but I haven't seen any UK Aero dates published anywhere.  I'm not sure how anyone knows how/where to try one - am I blind?  I even had a deposit down on one and still didn't get any info.  Yes, I know I could have contacted them, but I'm not sure the punter should have to do the chasing!
.

There was something on the Aero thread and a poster on the RS website giving details of the demo tour.

I was trying to get to the Grafham one but was not aware it happened last weekend after the previous one has been canned. This was despite RS knowing I was interested having booked me a spot on the first date.

Bit late now though, I have a Zero on order.....


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 9:58am
Originally posted by Punky

Chewdecided that it wasn't in the interest of existing fleetsto allow the boats to be demo'ed there.


Is that true? How can anyone be so arrogant and dictatorial and expect people to pay for the privilege, I wonder if their members all know that?

It's exactly the attitude that keeps this sport inaccessible.

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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 10:05am
THis is great news, maybe if there is a fleet at Grafham we could do a winter traveller series.  i know there will be 3/5 of us at Oxford (Jimbo is that right)    So maybe we could alternate weeks?  Be good to help local fleets grow.  

Also anyone planning on doing the Global Warm up series over the winter?  Maybe a good time to start talking to the great lakes to negotiate a handicap (earlier rather than being cobbled last minute)


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 10:43am

There was something on the Aero thread and a poster on the RS website giving details of the demo tour.
....


Have you got a link for the poster, I can't find anything?

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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:04am
There was an aero poster up in the clubhouse at Grafham for some time.  Sorry Paul, I didnt know you were interested or I would have told you.

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the same, but different...



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:21am
http://imageshack.com/a/img577/6730/dy2z.png" rel="nofollow - http://imageshack.com/a/img577/6730/dy2z.png

Is all I can find, looks like a grab from somewhere as the original PDF has been taken off.

And no worries about not letting me know, I would probably have been too busy changing nappies to be fair.
http://imageshack.com/a/img577/6730/dy2z.png" rel="nofollow -




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Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:48am
Originally posted by Null

Maybe a good time to start talking to the great lakes to negotiate a handicap (earlier rather than being cobbled last minute)


The PY's are already there for the Aero/Zero


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:59am
Alex Link please me ol mucker


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:02pm
Just found it!!!!  1010.  Not sure where they got the RYA handicap of 1050 from???
Aero 9 1010 as well.  Wish i had one for the Birkett now, Will be sailing a Phantom

http://events.sailracer.info/events/user_files/Great%20Lakes%20Handicaps%202014-2015-20140509-100511.pdf


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Punky


Chewdecided that it wasn't in the interest of existing fleetsto allow the boats to be demo'ed there.


I find it somewhat incongruous that a sailing club would defend a fleet to the exclusion of all others, including a 21st century boat that its members apparently have an interest in, whilst at the same time flouting class rules and potentially destroying that same fleet.



Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:08pm
Just for clarifiaction we were told that it would be a members' only day and, in fact, we had to request permission to give a non member the chance to test the D-Zero early on the Saturday morning. In fact the Commodore of GWSC told me that the open days are only open to members and members friends/contacts and not to the general public. I am very clear on the mandate and what was said


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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:18pm
Originally posted by Null


Just found it!!!! 1010. Not sure where they got the RYA handicap of 1050 from???
Aero 9 1010 as well. Wish i had one for the Birkett now, Will be sailing a Phantom
http://events.sailracer.info/events/user_files/Great%20Lakes%20Handicaps%202014-2015-20140509-100511.pdf



Seems about right, a friend had a go in the zero at L&L and he was mixing it with the Phantoms/400s. Probably end up 1020 i think.

I'll be at the Birkett with X1, come and say hello! ;-) Forescast looking great with loads of sun. First LB for me.


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:21pm
You will love it mate, its such a fantastic event.  I will be out in the pink sail numbered Phantom, massively over powered i should imagine and wishing i had a kite to help pay for all the handwork uphill!


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:21pm
Originally posted by sandgrounder

Originally posted by Punky


Chewdecided that it wasn't in the interest of existing fleetsto allow the boats to be demo'ed there.


I find it somewhat incongruous that a sailing club would defend a fleet to the exclusion of all others, including a 21st century boat that its members apparently have an interest in, whilst at the same time flouting class rules and potentially destroying that same fleet.



For the record I ought to say that the current commodore and his team have done a genuinely excellent job in the three years or so they've been in post. But yes, I was surprised and disappointed to be told that new singlehanders were not to be encouraged. Instead of protecting the Laser fleet, which did indeed place a group buy of replica sails, I suspect the aim was to protect the strongly growing Solo fleet. I have good friends in both fleets, but do feel a boat ought to be able to stand in its own right, not just because it was historically popular.



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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:29pm
Have Draycote not taken the same decision?


Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:35pm
We'll be fully powered up in anythin over a F2... only 15.8 sq M on a beam not much bigger than a Phantom

Can't wait!! Never sailed with 174 boats before.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:36pm
It's so f**ked up, 1015 Halo 1010 Punk? Yeah that'll work..

They are such screw ups.

Dinghy clubs refusing to countenance new boats, handicap anarchy, no wonder the sport is in such a Parlous State..

What's to be done?

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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 12:56pm
Do agree about inward looking sailing sailing clubs. 

I reckon the great lakes handicap( at this stage only a guess Smile) is not a long way out for open inland water.
G.r.f, I will lay you a small bet, that after a year of returns from puddle sailors like me, the official r.y.a number will settle out somewhere between 1020/1040. 


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 1:16pm
Have either of the boats done more than a handful of races, sailed by people who are borrowing them during demo days? If not, how are yardsticks being bandied around already? For once I agree with GRF, but maybe not for the same reasons - total statistical f**k up which will lead to bad feeling one way or another once actual returns start coming in.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 1:18pm
Originally posted by AlexM

We'll be fully powered up in anythin over a F2... only 15.8 sq M on a beam not much bigger than a Phantom

Can't wait!! Never sailed with 174 boats before.

If you are not on the front row of the starting grid mate, your race is pretty much over before its begun!  Its amazing watching the 9ers disappear off into the distance and then back down with the kites when you are halfway up the beat.  But what's more amazing is the sailing canoes (Not the IC's) those bouys are out there for like 6 hours, i will be on my 4th pint and you will hear a hooter. Lunatics!  Looking at the forecast its hard to look further than a 49er to win this year.


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Have either of the boats done more than a handful of races, sailed by people who are borrowing them during demo days? If not, how are yardsticks being bandied around already? For once I agree with GRF, but maybe not for the same reasons - total statistical f**k up which will lead to bad feeling one way or another once actual returns start coming in.

According to the PDF, by data gathered from regarding the boat.  Which to me suggests some bloke with a beard took a guess.  using some of the calculations banded about on here would at least put some science behind it.  Anyway, like it matters.  I wouldnt want to get somewhere near the chocolates in my first year of Zero sailing, it would just suggest that the PY was wrong.


Posted By: Norbas
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by Null

You will love it mate, its such a fantastic event.  I will be out in the pink sail numbered Phantom, massively over powered i should imagine and wishing i had a kite to help pay for all the handwork uphill!

I've bottled doing it in the D-Zero and taking the Laser instead. I know I'll regret it when I'm there but the thought of a shiny new boat, my iffy boat handling and 170+ other boats... Ouch


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 3:42pm
Come and say hi Norbas, be good to meet fellow Zero owners.  i will be in the Phantom with pink sail numbers!!!!!


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 6:48pm
If it ends up anywhere near 1010 I'll cancel simple as that, fast it may be, but it's not faster than the EPS off wind and I can't sail that to 1024 The only reason I was looking at it was that it's slower than the EPS with a smaller sail and less potential leverage and about the same waterline length.

Just the same as the Icon is a no go due to the ludicrous rating. (20 pts faster than a Contender on Open water I'd like to see the world finest Olympic team trying to stick that one on even an average club Contender sailor.)

They need sueing, seriously someone has to sort these idiots out.

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Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 7:26pm
1010 has to be a personal handicap for Dan Holman sailing the Punk and has nothing to do with where the D-Zero will settle. I have tried to stay out of the PY debate but there is no way that the D-Zero will land anywhere near the 1010 area with a, relatively, small sail and Laser type righting moment (beam).

For the record the Lord Birkett organisers decided that 1044 was appropriate.

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 7:27pm
Graeme if the ICON PY is so bad, how come they took 1st & 3rd in the handicap fleet at the PODD?

Get over it, and just enjoy sailing!!!!


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 8:48pm
What's a PODD? Some sort of sailing event for the retarded?

Bring your finest put them in an Icon and lets see how they fare against our club Contenders..

Or a Merlin.

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Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 10:34pm
Graeme, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Great Lakes handicap.  To be honest I think they have done the right thing.  There is little (no) data for them to py off, so if they guessed at 1050 and a zero or aero walked an event there would be uproar.  Better play safe then sorry, the right thing to do is just sail your boat.  The py will come out in the was and will be reflected on real life data, but as with any new class you will have to put up with the perils of en py for a while. Motives the numbers of boat that have sold there should be enough data to get an en for the start of the next season.

Chill out dude!  


Posted By: dogslife
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 10:51pm
IMHO - the PY system is fast becoming a complete nonsense and is completely ruining mixed fleet/class racing. The secret to success seems to be to just chose the "bandit class" of the moment and if you can keep it upright you stand chance of being in the prizes no matter how inept you might otherwise be.


Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:03pm
Originally posted by dogslife

The secret to success seems to be to just chose the "bandit class" of the moment and if you can keep it upright you stand chance of being in the prizes no matter how inept you might otherwise be.

I challenge you to produce your club's main handicap series with the results worked out for both the current handicaps and what you think they should be.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by dogslife

IMHO - the PY system is fast becoming a complete nonsense and is completely ruining mixed fleet/class racing. The secret to success seems to be to just chose the "bandit class" of the moment and if you can keep it upright you stand chance of being in the prizes no matter how inept you might otherwise be.

That's exactly what's going on, folk dumping Phantoms now in their droves looking for the next PY friendly class the bozo's have missed.
Until there is system that's fixed in fact, that can't be gerrymandered by agenda driven or well meaning but statistically ill informed 'human error' there is just going to be a continued increase in distrust and disquiet.

Nothing can ever be 'correct' but it could be factually logical to start with driven by physics rather than stats, then if clubs want to 'mess' with it to suit their own purpose so be it, but the way things are now, it's a nonsense.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 02 Jul 14 at 11:54pm
Originally posted by Null

Graeme, I wouldn't pay too much attention to the Great Lakes handicap. To be honest I think they have done the right thing. There is little (no) data for them to py off, so if they guessed at 1050 and a zero or aero walked an event there would be uproar. Better play safe then sorry, the right thing to do is just sail your boat. The py will come out in the was and will be reflected on real life data, but as with any new class you will have to put up with the perils of en py for a while. Motives the numbers of boat that have sold there should be enough data to get an en for the start of the next season.
Chill out dude!


They didn't 'guess' at 1050, Dan sailed the Punk off 1050 for three years, he did the FOM off 1050, the same event the Icon sailed off 1020, they are driving the Laser ever slower and of course the Laser is constantly being 'improved'. Try explaining that to folk who don't exactly 'get' the system in the first place.

The whole shoddy sport is riddled with corruption, wether it's clubs protecting classes, event organisers trying to create an environment to sway their numbers, builders using the system for commercial advantage, either way it's individuals like me that are getting screwed and we don't like it. We don't want to have to 'work' a system to get in the results just because others do and that the environment is being created and used for commercial gain. Then even if we try to buy 'fresh' the f**kers are there to ensure your fun is spoilt because you didn't buy into 'their' system.

It's wrong and it's f**king up a previously great sport.

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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 12:15am
WackoThumbs Down


Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 8:04am
Graeme. Chin up, don't let those persecution demons get to you. It is a great sport, concentrate on the sailing and forget the numbers and paper results. You only need one mate with the same boat and you're in business for some pure boat on boat action. It really is in your and everybody else's own head & hands to choose not to feel like a PY victim.  


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 8:23am
You know, sometimes I don't recognise the sport that goes on at my club and on various circiuts I've been involved with from what I read on this forum.

If people really are swapping from the Phantom because they no longer win every race on handicap, that is pretty sad.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 8:31am
I'm not a victim, nor am I a fool, and I certainly don't like being treated like one by a bunch of dinghy wide boys.

I wouldn't mind, but I gave up a weekend to help a chap in distress, what I witnessed was a keen enthusiast and his wife, working against systematic odds stacked against him. He's afforded a young up and coming designer a chance, he doesn't need to do this any more than I do, to be humping boats in the pissing rain and freezing cold, spending hundreds in transport costs, to find his demo has been railroaded by the Commodores favourite brand, you can't blame those boys either they're just doing their job, wasting their time with a handful of chance passers by. Nevertheless out flagged, out flanked and other than a couple of customers he'd brought along it was a complete waste of time and money.

Don't even start me on all the vested interests that support the status quo and deny any new craft a fair chance, I doubt you'd have to scratch too deep into the surface to find some pathetic link, wether by a sponsored jockey, a bit of a deal with a supplier. I'm also only too aware of the dubious ministrations at the heart of the RYA, you forget commercial vested interest there screwed our sport back in the nineties and all I see is another sport I love been f**ked over by the same forces.

Existing classes also have commercial suppliers, jockeys on deals and journo's probably in on the act.

Victim? We're all victims.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 8:33am
Did you get up on the wrong side of your board this morning?......

(I do agree about having both demos together though if neither side was aware the other would be there).



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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: Daniel Holman
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 9:01am
Graeme I wouldn't be so concerned, I have faith it'll settle in the right place, especially if plenty of people sail them at breezy sea venues, ie the number isn't cooked by being sailed predominantly in the lighter shorter course inland stuff where this boat will alway punch above its PY weight.
What I don't see is a front page article about the upcoming demo day at hythe, champagne forecast for sea sailing! That'd be a good outlet for your enthusiasm, given you are sailing sec right?
Dan


Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 9:10am
Grf
Your statement about droves leaving the Phantom because of the PY is wrong a few guys who have been in the fleet for a long time fancied a change and to try something new with a brake on for downwind. The guys are mostly from one area of the country and have sailed against each other for years so naturally like to sail against each other.
Some will be back for the Nationals and I am sure a few will will return over the next few seasons.
Dont cancel your D Zero unless you think the Aero is the better boat and want that instead, either will be much better on a small pond that the EPS and much better on the sea downwind with waves to play with.
Infact sod either buy a new Phantom I did and am really enjoying it and still winning when I sail well enough.
Gordon
proud owner of Phantom 1430



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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 9:28am
Graeme in a Phantom......he is a little short and light you do know that...still could be good watching him try to launch through the famous Hythe shore dump.....

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 9:50am
I'm watching my friend being dispirited week in week out sailing his Phantom and getting nowhere.

As to the Hythe Demo we're already pretty well subscribed and I'm worried about the hot sunny windy weather forecast, being able to cope with the numbers, we have both Hythe and Redoubt sailors to cope with as well as some visitors that have indicated they want to come down for the weekend.

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 9:55am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by dogslife

The secret to success seems to be to just chose the "bandit class" of the moment and if you can keep it upright you stand chance of being in the prizes no matter how inept you might otherwise be.

I challenge you to produce your club's main handicap series with the results worked out for both the current handicaps and what you think they should be.

Given the amount of DNCs on a typical club series, I think it's fair to assume most folks couldn't give a f**k for their club series results.  They do however care for their individual result on any given race, and as such, are grateful for the efforts of the results compiler and entitled to their views about classes which have seen rapid development and a lag factor in the PN allocation.    

Do I think that 1010 will turn out to be a challenging handicap for the Aero and/or Zero?  Absolutely, that's exactly why the Great Lakes scheme have settled on it and as such, it meets their objectives.  Give them a year or two, when they actually have some RYA data to throw in to the mix and it could well soften, or maybe not.    

The RYA encourage local adjustment, which is exactly what the Great Lakes numbers do.  But don't fall in to the trap of assuming that local adjustment is purely to create fairer racing.  It can also be used to load the dice for whatever reason including commercial and political reasoning- in this case, to prevent a new class from walking away with the chocolates, irrespective of the person steering.  Why?  i don't know really, in any other walk of life, showcasing a new product within an event framework also out for recognition for its sponsors tends to be mutually beneficial.  You certainly don't go to the Geneva Motor Show to see the same old dross from Ford and Vauxhall.  

However, if you don't like that, and their reasons for it, then you are quite within your rights to not attend and go to another event.  As Rodney says, the Lord Birkett has settled on 1044 for this year, so there are other events out there which have a more realistic approach to the actual anticipated performance, rather than a deliberate attempt to ensure it is not that competitive.


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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 10:01am
I wouldn't mind if the 'chocolates' were even worth protecting, but it's hardly a 50,000 dollar prize fund is it? What are the Sail juice lot protecting? A few deals with lipstick builders? What is it? It makes no sense?

The Laser thing does at least have some logic in the numbers being swelled by dragging boats out of the nettles getting bums on gunwales.

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 10:27am
Originally posted by iGRF

What are the Sail juice lot protecting? A few deals with lipstick builders? What is it? It makes no sense?

Actually it makes total sense- one of those difficult decisions that's not going to be universally popular.

Dinghy racing is in decline.  The RYA stats are in denial.  There are less people travelling to class events, and this year, my gut instinct says there are less people participating regularly at club level racing too.   

I have only looked at the results of one or two clubs recently, but it seems to be the trend I can see.  The reasons for that are probably for another thread- I personally blame the economy, windguru and social media.  But I'm realistic enough to know those genies smashed their bottles on their way out and on a personal level, there's no way I'm leaving a ten grand boat sitting on the drive at the whims and indecision of a Facebook group deciding whether an event is on or not.  My free time is too precious....  

Sail Juice offers a platform for us to fit in some pre-planned sailing into that free time, assuring us that there will be sufficient numbers to justify the running of the event.  In order to do this, they adopt a conservative approach when it comes to new boats and gear the handicapping accordingly to encourage those with older boats to come along.  As a result, traditional classes do seemingly benefit.  

They also happen to have open sailmakers and peripherals, which as we know, leads to semi-pro and pro sailors in those classes championing their growth.  Why some new boat builders launch without engaging that network of sailmakers I simply don't understand  I guess the mark-up on a new rag is where the money is in the long term, so decimating your value chain vs increased market reach becomes a clinical decision- skewed by the success that is the Laser no doubt, but I'd say the rise of the Solo, Phantom, Contender, Int Moth in a falling domestic market etc would be better case studies for launching a new boat.  

As I said, if any of us don't like that they gear the handicapping such to swell participation, then we are quite free to sail elsewhere at other events.




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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 10:59am
Case of greatest good to the greatest number. If you guess a handicap that is unfavourable to a new class then only the tiny minority who sail that boat are disadvantaged. If you guess a handicap that is favourable to a new class then the vast majority of competitors in the event are unfairly treated. Therefore you should err on the unfavourable side.


Posted By: Null
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:09am
Originally posted by JimC

Case of greatest good to the greatest number. If you guess a handicap that is unfavourable to a new class then only the tiny minority who sail that boat are disadvantaged. If you guess a handicap that is favourable to a new class then the vast majority of competitors in the event are unfairly treated. Therefore you should err on the unfavourable side.
Agree with Jim here and to be frank, i dont blame them.  They simply cannot afford for a new class to rock up and win the event as regardless of the sailor.  There will be uproar regarding the PY, so the boat is hamstrung to ensure it doesnt win.  Please the masses not the few.  i would do the same, and as a future Zero owner I wouldnt want to win an event in the early stages of class development.  it would completely cheapen my result.  Winning to me is defeating others, walking away with an inward smile safe in the knowledge that my best was the best.  There is no glory winning on a piece of paper and trick of a calculator!


Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:24am
Originally posted by Null

Originally posted by JimC

Case of greatest good to the greatest number. If you guess a handicap that is unfavourable to a new class then only the tiny minority who sail that boat are disadvantaged. If you guess a handicap that is favourable to a new class then the vast majority of competitors in the event are unfairly treated. Therefore you should err on the unfavourable side.
Agree with Jim here and to be frank, i dont blame them.  They simply cannot afford for a new class to rock up and win the event as regardless of the sailor.  There will be uproar regarding the PY, so the boat is hamstrung to ensure it doesnt win.  Please the masses not the few.  i would do the same, and as a future Zero owner I wouldnt want to win an event in the early stages of class development.  it would completely cheapen my result.  Winning to me is defeating others, walking away with an inward smile safe in the knowledge that my best was the best.  There is no glory winning on a piece of paper and trick of a calculator!

+1


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 11:37am
precisely... doing well (mid fleet) at 1010 would be far more satisfying than getting in the top 10 at 10** and having accusations of banditry thrown at you.

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 12:57pm
Precisely why the sport is stymied, the lunatics running the asylum.

It can never grow with that sort of attitude..

Flagship events should showcase the future, not operate as an extreme Museum Makeover show.

It's f**ked.

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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 1:21pm
Yet another PY argument? Really?

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-_
Al


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 1:30pm
Hardly anyone owns a boat from the future, so it is difficult to get anyone taking part in such an event. Maybe the point of these events to to get a large group of sailors together to have a fun day/weekend.

If you want an event showcasing the future, then you need a different approach, I think. Maybe each manufacturer supplies 10 boats which can be leased to competitors, and you then, say have 8 fleets (DZero, Aero 5, 7, 9, Icon, K2, 2 more new classes) with 80 boats on the water racing as 8 fleets of 10 for 1 1/2 days, with a giant all in race at the end where speeds can be compared. It could attract big sponsorship, be freebies for spectators, be broadcast on the interweb, have a grandstand. People would see the new product, there could be more boats there for taster sails - all in all, a grand weekend out both for competitors and for the companies trying to sell their boats. The 80 boats are sold during the event to be collected at the end.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 1:33pm
Maybe most D-Zero sailors are just happy to go along- whatever the PY number allocated prior to anything official from the RYA?  They are lucky to be included.... some of those events wouldn't allow a Weta to take part for instance.

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Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 1:39pm
To be honest, I'll be happy to compete in the SailJuice Series on a given handicap of 1010 in my D-Zero, until it finds its own level, though ultimately for me of course the attraction is fleet racing.

At the weekend a well sailed D-Zero finished 2nd in the club regatta at Grafham Water, sailing off a GL handicap of 1010 with the Lasers on 1117.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 2:51pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Hardly anyone owns a boat from the future, so it is difficult to get anyone taking part in such an event. Maybe the point of these events to to get a large group of sailors together to have a fun day/weekend.If you want an event showcasing the future, then you need a different approach, I think. Maybe each manufacturer supplies 10 boats which can be leased to competitors, and you then, say have 8 fleets (DZero, Aero 5, 7, 9, Icon, K2, 2 more new classes) with 80 boats on the water racing as 8 fleets of 10 for 1 1/2 days, with a giant all in race at the end where speeds can be compared. It could attract big sponsorship, be freebies for spectators, be broadcast on the interweb, have a grandstand. People would see the new product, there could be more boats there for taster sails - all in all, a grand weekend out both for competitors and for the companies trying to sell their boats. The 80 boats are sold during the event to be collected at the end.



Good idea Rupert, I wonder how many would show up in Solo's & Lasers with a five grand purse at stake and a caveat that the boat had to be 21st century in origin.

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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 4:08pm
you would not be allowed in your EPS so last century!


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Gordon
Lossc


Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by kneewrecker



Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by dogslife

The secret to success seems to be to just chose the "bandit class" of the moment and if you can keep it upright you stand chance of being in the prizes no matter how inept you might otherwise be.

I challenge you to produce your club's main handicap series with the results worked out for both the current handicaps and what you think they should be.

Given the amount of DNCs on a typical club series, I think it's fair to assume most folks couldn't give a f**k for their club series results. They do however care for their individual result on any given race, and as such, are grateful for the efforts of the results compiler...

I agree with most of that, but surely we should care about our series results - can you really be racing if you have no interest in the result? That we don't suggests that we are disengaged and club series formats have gone stale. Sorry for going off topic.

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 8:00pm
Some will care, some won't... A lot don't seem to care enough to priotise the series come rain or ill wind, nagging other-halves or visiting inlaws...

Time poor maybe.?

No wonder dinghy sailing appears more and more to be a pursuit of school age children and the retired.

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Posted By: Peaky
Date Posted: 03 Jul 14 at 8:37pm
Yes, it is difficult to commit to doing every race every weekend. The answer though, surely is not to accept you are going for an organised cruise, but to raise the excitement levels - differentiating more between different series so that once race is not a repeat of the one before. Maybe e-mail the results out rather than posting the on some obscure link on the club website. Maybe use a more attractive way of reporting the results than a bland table of numbers that sail wave gives you. Maybe produce several sets of results from one race, so you can easily pick what matters to you - a Laser racing in a py race for example could have results not just for overall place, but singlehander, medium handicap, hiker and Laser fleet.

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Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 9:22am
Grf's vision for dinghy sailing seems to be that everyone would need to. Buy into the latest design, with latest tech. every year or two. You'd be buying a new 12k boat every two years and selling it on for next to nothing as it would have been superseded.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 10:18am
My Vision for dinghy sailing is that everyone should be allowed to purchase and use what they wish, without others altering the rules to ensure their particular vested interest is protected, wether that be a club, class or business that supplies that club or class with goods and services.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 11:11am
I do exactly as you say, GRF - I buy exactly the boats I want to, and at no point has anyone stopped me, not for the last 30 years, at the point where my parents could no longer say "no". Sometimes I have bought boats where the handicap has seemed harsh for the type of water I've been sailing on. Either I've stuck with it because I like the boat, or I have changed classes to one that suits the type of water better. Occasionally, I have seen the handicaps rise on those boats in recent years, suggesting that the new system is allowing changes to reflect what real sailors are finding. Other classes, for whatever reason (results coming from one type of water would be my guess) haven't changed.

At no point have I felt that "the system" was out to get me, whether it be the RYA, my CA, other people's CA, clubs, builders or whatever. Occasionally I have come into contact with individuals with agendas of their own which are at odds with what I want to do, but that is true in any walk of life, and I would say less common in sailing than in work, say.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 12:33pm
Well we'll have to beg to differ and being a consummate conspiracy theorist as well as paranoid, I know they are out to get me.

Lets look at my case, the EPS still at 1024? The Alto now at 9012, the Icon 969? I then decide to buy the Punk it's listed at 1010.. Even had I gone Aero, that's also at 1010.

So we have the Laser 3000 a planing three sail trap hull at 1058 the Laser still going skywards in their efforts to drag them out of the nettles and it's not screwed up? I'm glad you're happy, doesn't help me though does it?

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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 1:47pm
Realistically the EPS number ain't gonna move much 'cos there ain't many being used. Likewise the Alto. Ditto the 3k, Icon etc. Its a stats based system... And, for the sake of argument, if a 3k is sailed on RTC courses it won't perform to its potential, thus artificially inflating the PY. As always - the sailor is much more important a factor than the PY.


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Nick
https://www.fireballsailing.org.uk/index.asp?selection=boat-register&subsel=14821" rel="nofollow - GBR 14821 Sijambo



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 2:03pm
Well that is also nonsense there were more EPS stats registered than the Alto, Icon, the Aero, the Punk etc, it's just not on anyones radar. The system is flawed with human nature..

Bring on SBRHS...

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Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 2:16pm
Graeme before you get too wound up about local handicap adjustments for events you don't plan to attend, it's worth noting 1035 was being used at a club race earlier this week and 1044 is going to be used at the Lord Birkett (iirc).

None of these numbers are endorsed in any way by the RYA or Devoti.

To me, that sounds like the system is working.... 


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 2:17pm
The eps's sailing at Whitefriars seem to do pretty well off 1024. In fact, given that they used to be rather nearer 1000, I'd say the handicap is a bit of a bandit when the wind is between force 2 and 4- ie, exactly when sailing is most enjoyable. In V light stuff, the low freeboard and wings stop the boat when tacking, and it does seem to become a bit too frisky when the wind picks up.

I was surprised there was enough data to make the decision to up it to 1024, so it must be on someone's radar.

As for the Zero or Aero, if the trial number that one event is going to give a boat is enough to stop someone buying it, you have to wonder either about the commitment the person has to the boat or their motives for getting the boat in the first place.

And the Icon looks like it is winning things off 969 - lets hope that others sailing the boat are not doing so well, or the number will drop again, and we will have to listen to people crying all over again.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: sandgrounder
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by Rupert


As for the Zero or Aero, if the trial number that one event is going to give a boat is enough to stop someone buying it, you have to wonder either about the commitment the person has to the boat or their motives for getting the boat in the first place.


Nail on the head, right there


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 4:05pm
The problem would be solved if they simply banned sailing on freshwater .

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 5:02pm
I'm sure it would. But shouldn't the extra support of salt water make a low volume hull like the EPS faster on the sea?

Or aren't there enough bubbles in the hull?


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: kneewrecker
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 5:04pm
I think Graeme's gone for the wrong one... if the Aero floats and bounces, as opposed to slices upwind, then surely the lee bow effect would be amplified?

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 5:06pm
I'm just amazed he didn't go for the Aero simply for the name.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 6:23pm
The EPS is faster on the sea, I don't have anything like the problems with a Laser that I do on the Lake.

Like the Phantom unless it's very very light, is slower on the *sea, as the Aero will be upwind (but the off wind speed will more than compensate). The Aero 7 will probably end up being a right little bandit on the sea once all the inland muppet results screw up the stats, lets just make that my prediction shall we?

*By sea I mean proper sea, not estuary billiard tables or solent chop.



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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 7:28pm
Nobody should EVER buy a boat based on current handicap .... why ?  1) It can be so wrong of course  2) it will probably then change in time anyway

You should only ever buy any boat becuase you actually like sailing it.... and if you don't really like sailing it ... ie "it must float your personal boat" then stand aside and save yourself a lot or money.  Gamble on a 'poachers handicap' lasting at your peril ...

There seems to be a hell of a lot of 'speed speculation' going on here without much 'on water' objective testing (ie real races !)....  LOL  Get a life or something there, or hydrofoils, a board or a cat.  Dinghies of this type can never be properly 'quick' - but that should not be the point.  'Nice' quite possibly on occasion if you are lucky but properly 'quick' is marketing press release copy stuff really......  It is all only relative in the end.

Sail your choice, whatever that may be, because you really really like it - and not for any other reason.  

Mike L.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 04 Jul 14 at 8:25pm
A handicap should only change if there is a material alteration to the boat, a sailors handicap could probably change with practise, but having your handicap changed by the manipulation of others is fundamentally wrong and takes any 'enjoyment' of the results away.

Sure you can ignore them, sure you can smile and applaud the table full of chocolates on the bandits table at prize giving suppers, but and here's the rub, when you're trying to attract newcomers to this world, it is very hard to explain what's what, yes you can sail the boat you like, but only providing it's been around for years and lots of other people have sailed it before you..

It's bollox.

And lets see how you feel when the Blaze is 1010 which is nearer where it should be if your precious Great Lakes are to be believed

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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 05 Jul 14 at 10:34am
The 'Great Lakes' type approach is where handicapping is heading and its influence has quite possibly already seen the core PN model modified at the margins - for example in 'faster' adjustments.  I think it very likely that its impact will continue to grow .... the 'official' system now  seems to be not 'leading' but 'following'.   Club results led databases are big ... but are they now producing what is really assumed or wanted ?

The 'formal' PN system still does not attempt to specifically weight PN numbers towards the potential of the craft.  It 'proudly' (naively ?) measures all races it can get its hands on from the clubs and simply in effect averages them.  Want a 'favorable' handicap ?  Buy into a class with lots and lots of cheap old boats that are clearly not as quick as they were when new and buy yourself  a new one of them with nice crisp sails etc ....    Any 'Fast' results are then heavily diluted by the 7/8ths of the class iceberg... that has its natural stomping ground around the back of many a local club handicap fleet and amongst locals who a happy with things the way they are and rarely travel to 'away' events etc...  Often sailed with that 10 year old main and by some who think 'maintenance' is limited to the annual removal of undergrowth sprouting up around the poor old hull.  Simple really ...

New classes are therefore a tough one for that system .... and yes I do know that.  I and the others don't race Icon for example because the experimental number is easy. 

The crude portsmouth approach constantly conspires to throw us back into the middle of any handcap fleet of course.  (premise = average boat example with average crew ability) Cynically we would need to encourage a lot of 'slow' results with perhaps with a goodly proportion of dinghy novices driving old boats around if we wanted the same 'dilution' effect that some classes naturally enjoy.  

The GL approach is very far from perfect BUT its declared aims are based on the assumption that the front of that fleet made up of all classes are competitive front quartile examples sailed by fully competive crfews.  Less dilution occurs as poor examples are proportionally fewer ...   They seek to handicap all based much more on boat potential.  Surely this is what many assume and want anyway from the PN system ?  

But a tough number is not why I or anyone else should race Icons or whatever in handicap....  Early adopters can be quite skilled in my experience and of course all the kit is nice and new.   Hence why GL should be a better approach for new classes.  It already assumes the boats are competitive for a start and the events do attract the capable (netting out much of that 'crew factor' stuff.)   ... Much less of an institutionalised, even if unintended, bias there.

If you want a GL number .. then pitch up at the events.  Many, perhaps a majority already, of the major handicap events are already using the GL numbers.  In the meantime just enjoy your choice, new or old ... but if 'new' and you want to race in handicap then like us you will have to accept a period of perhaps punitive handicaps under any reasonable system. 

Surely you would sail / race any boat primarily because you enjoy it ? 

Mike L.

PS - As an aside - my own club handicappers are not usually well known for offering favorable numbers to anyone, including myself.  However even they, allow Icon to continue to race at 990 rather than the '969' of the purist RYA approach.  But then they do have a good grasp of that systems strengths and weaknesses maybe and despite the fact that Burghfields own Icon results last year made up a high proportion of the return that produced '969' once in the RYA's hands !     
  

 


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 15 Jul 14 at 4:12pm
On to Hythe and Saltwood this weekend

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
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[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 15 Jul 14 at 6:14pm
Oh no, does that mean that iGRF won't be coming to Thornbury SC Regatta? I was hoping he'd be able to show me how to sail in proper tide!


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 15 Jul 14 at 6:41pm
lee bow   

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: Washy71
Date Posted: 20 Jul 14 at 2:50pm
Well, given the poor weather last time and the huge amount of interest stirred up by three of us at GWSC placing orders, we've got a return of the lovely D Zero to Grafham!

" rel="nofollow - http://www.grafham.org/wp-content/uploads/_pdfs/D-zero-club-promo.pdf


Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:10pm
I can confirm that the D-Zeros will return to Grafham Water SC for test sailing on 26th, 27th and 30th July. We are pleased to announce that, this time, the event is also open to non-members. If you are not a member of GWSC please contact me to book for a D-Zero test sail at Grafham.

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Rodney Cobb
Suntouched Sailboats Limited
http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk
[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk


Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 21 Jul 14 at 1:25pm
Can I come look at my boat Rodney? Wink

As it is I might have a pass to sail on the 26th or 27th so I may pop over regardless (I will email you once I have permission).


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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74



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