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Ist chilly breeze capsizefest of the winter season

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy Yarns...
Forum Discription: Tell us your sailing stories
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11195
Printed Date: 03 Dec 20 at 2:04pm
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Topic: Ist chilly breeze capsizefest of the winter season
Posted By: iGRF
Subject: Ist chilly breeze capsizefest of the winter season
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 5:02pm
I think I totalled ten or twelve capsizes before cramp finally got the better of me today, after a brief lead to the first mark then into double capsize irons -last place, being the smallest bloke with the biggest sail is becoming tedious. I wasn't going to go out, but got egged on by the wednesday afternoon club only to find the main protagonist out in his 5 mtr sailed Splash toy.
I need a windy boat, I've had enough of battling this big ass sail in strong gusty shifty wind, I wouldn't take a nine metre sail out in that on a windsurfer where I do have a degree of competency, quite what I'm doing with one with no autopilot competance to fall back on I don't know...


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Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 5:52pm
Grief, Surrey isn't that far away and I was struggling for breeze today.

Did you have enough downhaul on?


Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 6:34pm
It was just a nice day for a sail, here in the Midlands. Everybody had a good sail and only one capsize in the whole fleet.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 6:45pm
I't was blowing 5-6 Offshore so a no-no at Hythe, but some thrills and spills on the Lake, I tried to reef it, there's a secondary clew and tack, but as always, it's never small enough in the gusts and that boat is so tippy when it cuts off. I think pretty much everybody went over except the lead mine Snipes, I think you'd need a crane to pull them over, they've bred there were two down today. We had a good turnout, must have been a dozen or so, Snipes, Miracles, Lasers, Streakers, that Splash & Me, making splashes.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:25pm
Saturday at West Oxford we had a drifter, today at Whitefriars I was in a coaching boat, therefore we had a lovely breeze, even planing weather for a brief while. However, by 2pm it had started to fade rapidly.

As for the windy boat - there's a Splash there already, why not get another? It is a boat for teenagers, so should be about the right size. You could even bung the bigger sail they do on it for when the wind dies a bit, though I guess the eps would come out again then.



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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:31pm
well at least you made out this weekend Graeme.... 1st snowboard session tomorrow night, followed by a Fanatic demo at West Wittering next weekend, hopefully there'll be a breeze, if not I'll go for drift around in the Solo instead.


Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:38pm
Yeah really quiet on our puddle today. One short beat where we were both hiking otherwise it was sitting down to leeward.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:48pm
So what is generally regarded as a good windy weather craft? Force 5-6 like today (when you can see whitecaps going away from you)even SuperOlympichopefulman went in today serves him right gheying it in a Streaker...

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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by yellowwelly


1st snowboard session tomorrow night,


Helmet up, I've just watched that 'Crash Reel' about Kevin Pearce and how his head injury screwed him up, I know exactly how he feels, after my bash, I totally lost my heel side edge, the weirdest thing, never really did recover.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:52pm
Good as in "will win on handicap if you're good enough to keep it upright", good as in "any muppet can keep it upright" or some other kind of good?


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by JimC

Good as in "will win on handicap if you're good enough to keep it upright", good as in "any muppet can keep it upright" or some other kind of good?

Good as in can continue to 'race' rather than 'survive'.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 8:07pm
Topper.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 9:49pm
For you... Splash, Byte Cii, Radial, Europe, Farr 3.7

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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 10 Nov 13 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by yellowwelly


1st snowboard session tomorrow night,


Helmet up, I've just watched that 'Crash Reel' about Kevin Pearce and how his head injury screwed him up, I know exactly how he feels, after my bash, I totally lost my heel side edge, the weirdest thing, never really did recover.


I never board without one , but thanks for the reminder , no harm in a bit of reinforced safety protocol!


Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 8:53am
In a force 5, almost everyone sailing any dinghy will be depowering. In a force 6, a lot of classes have a sustained wind limit for racing in this region.
 
Dinghy sailing will generally call it quits in less wind than cats, windsurfers and leadmines.


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-_
Al


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:08am
That's very true, although there are some notable exceptions which bark their loudest when it's windy....

Blaze
Contender
420


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 9:13am
There's a culture of sailing Miracles down the lake, they don't actually begin to move around until most other boats are blown off the water..

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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:46pm
I was sailing one of the Snipes agaist GRF at the lake this weekend and he is right there were some very hefty gusts coming through.

I think a lot of the issue he is seeing could be put down to a combination of light(ish) weight guy, big sail and big wind and the lack of chines on the EPS.
What would suit grf to the ground would be a Solution.

The boats suggested so far are not all that easy to sail when the big breeze is up, yes they have small sails but thats only part of the story, having chines to me makes the boat more stable when turning and less prone to being rolly.

Dan


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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782


Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 12:50pm
Solo- Winder Mk1, Proctor C Section, Custom HD Sail cut for lightweights.... that'd work okay, it even has his beloved centreboard.


Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 11 Nov 13 at 4:30pm
How about trying to improve your sailing by getting a Laser you can race closely against the others and learn from them, when it gets windy change the rig down to a Radial ;-)


Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 6:32am
Yes as Roger said, very quiet on the puddle but if you want a handicap bandit try a Topaz or a Comet. Neither of us (Merlin and Albacore) could hold off the Comet in that light stuff.
It's also where crews' discover that a helm fitted out the boat as they sit down uncomfortably on cleats or blocks. And as for that projecting centreboard handle... well it's a good thing I'm female.


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 11:05am
I quite like the look of this little beauty, it's allegedly a moth of some description, but it's got that scow look I like which could make it a fun breezy boat.



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Posted By: Rob.e
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 11:20am
It's a '70s vintage Tunnel hull Scow- they were blisteringly fast in a breeze, I once saw one overtake a Fireball- and then nose dive up to the gooseneck! They were not competitive in lighter winds. Also, if you found one it would be home built in wood, probably not Grahams idea of what he wants! You might be able to find plans somewhere and have one built...

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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 11:53am
Not sure there are many around in this country, weren't they mostly an Australian design thread? Think they were killed off by the new claridge moths in the 70s.

Am sure Rupert or some one interested in old boat design will post more detail.


Posted By: Nipper
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 1:24pm
How does that kicker work? No purchase, winch or lever visible??


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39 years of dinghy racing and still waiting to peak.


Posted By: Nipper
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 1:39pm
I was at college in the early 80's and one of the Izzat brothers was in our sailing team. He and his brothers sailed moths and his older brother had won the Moth Worlds 3 times in the Magnum 3 skiff design of moth. He said that whilst the scows were still faster in a big breeze, the brits had mastered the skiff so that they could hang on and still get a goodish result when it was blowing, but killed the scows in the light to medium.
 
That was the end of the scows.
 
 


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39 years of dinghy racing and still waiting to peak.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 1:46pm
A shame, really, as the scows were easier to sail. After that, the Moths got harder and harder simply to get around the course. Wonderful to watch, but not for a beginner to sail.

Maybe GRF should go and buy a Minisail...

He saw the (questionable) light wind performance at the FOM, but not the enormous fun they are in a blow.




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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iitick
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 5:39pm
When you sat 'tunnel hull' do you mean it is concave underneath?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Nov 13 at 6:27pm
The hull is concave at the forward end of the Moth - the rules say how far you are allowed to concave the hull before it becomes a cat, like the Vortex, which is banned in the rules.

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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 10:35am
So can that be raced over here? Can't find any listing for it, would it have a yardstick of any description, it just looks like it would be an absolute blast for days like last sunday and we do seem to get them more and more, it's been a very windy year down here especially from Northerlies and the Lake carry on regardless whereas on the sea we often end up cancelling.

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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 10:52am
There are some class supplied yardsticks worked out for old Moths. This sort of vintage boat would have been sailing off somewhere around 101 or 102 in 1960's money. This would give you a modern handicap of somewhere between 1150 and 1170, I guess - it would need time to see what works for the boat. It will be bi-polar, though - crap in the light, great in the strong, so if you only sail her in strong winds, your handicap might end up skewed.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 11:30am
Well I'd only use it if there was any breeze, the rest of the time the EPS is OK, although I've managed to find a new small sail still in its bag, so that might help, but to be honest I think what Dan pointed out is probably the case, being light if it's breezy and the racks are out, it's not so much the gusts, it's when they switch off and you pitch in to weather very quickly with it's quite narrow round hull.

Even as I lined up for that start, I'm wobbling about dare not sit out, can't sit to far in, so part kneeling, and there is Superman just sat there in his Streaker looking perfectly calm, I'm up on my ear with the sail sheeted out.

Then the next day I can hardly walk all that kneeling in one minute, hiked full stretch next.

So that little wide sled looks perfect for those conditions.

So the next question, how much can I mess with it? (Carbon windsurfer rig?)

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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 12:11pm
oh please let grumpf buy a cvrda boat, that would make my year...

I have a dinky little grp skol which has been retro fitted with a centreboard, perhaps he should try that.  He will only break the scow and that would be a shame



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the same, but different...



Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 12:28pm
back in the dim distant past I too had a mk 1 skol , most fragile boat Ive ever had   , hull was thinest foam sandwich ever seen , was an achievement getting it in the water without putting the trolley through it !! I was forever patching the hull .

once snapped the centreboard off on a particularily windy day , lifeboat was passing and stopped to help , fella fully suited and booted was preparing to jump onto upturned boat untill I convinced him he would have gone straight through ! 



still one of the luckiest boats ive had and it won lots .

ps managed to sail home unassisted , but wobbly :) 


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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 1:11pm
The great thing about that Scow Moth is that there is no class, so you can do what you like to it. Mind, you can with any boat - it is your's, after all. Windsurfer rigs have been tried in the past, but what you want from a sail is a little different, as you know, from dinghy to board, so it has never been too successful.

The Skol moth really doesn't come into the same catagory in terms of easy to sail in a blow.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 1:22pm
The skol moth is not easy to sail. It's quite like one of the winged low riders.  A challenge.  I have been watching that scow moth for ages but it seems expensive to me.


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the same, but different...



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 2:56pm
It's way too expensive for an ancient old wooden tub, but then my massive ego is worth any sum I care to lavish on it eh wing wang? I can't wait til the day dawns when I finally settle on something that suits it and it delivers a thermo nuclear windsurfer style thrashing to you and your CVDRA mates, then I'll make you eat it along with your mealy mouthing stroppery..

But you're right it's too much even a simpering idiot with no idea about dinghy sailing can see that.

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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by catmandoo

hull was thinest foam sandwich ever seen

Think you'll find they were actually coremat - at least my Skol 3 is. Bit early for foam sandwich.

I've never found it that delicate* or tricky to sail - probably depends what you are used to though.

*although I did rip shroud and surrounding area of deck out of the boat because I stupidly stayed on the water when I knew it was getting too windy for it. Fortunately Bloodaxe did a really neat invisible mending job for me.


Posted By: jaydub
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by Nipper

I was at college in the early 80's and one of the Izzat brothers was in our sailing team.
Mike? Salford?


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 6:27pm
Originally posted by JimC



I've never found it that delicate* or tricky to sail - probably depends what you are used to though.



Not massively tricky, as the wing is in the form of flare, so gives some stability when heeled, but certainly as tricky as an eps. Certainly not a heavy weather boat in the sense GRF is wanting.


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Firefly 2324, Lightning 130, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446


Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 13 Nov 13 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by JimC



*although I did rip shroud and surrounding area of deck out of the boat because I stupidly stayed on the water when I knew it was getting too windy for it. Fortunately Bloodaxe did a really neat invisible mending job for me.


By doing that you did convince me,  in my little wooden classic, that it really was time to run for shore. When I got there I found JT destroying the mag 5 because he hadn't come off early enough either.


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the same, but different...



Posted By: Nipper
Date Posted: 14 Nov 13 at 10:34am
Originally posted by jaydub

Originally posted by Nipper

I was at college in the early 80's and one of the Izzat brothers was in our sailing team.
Mike? Salford?
I think it was Peter, the youngest brother.
 
This was at Poly of the Southbank, 1983 or 84


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39 years of dinghy racing and still waiting to peak.



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