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Handicap racing now pointless?

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r2d2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote r2d2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 8:18am
Originally posted by chrisg



As James has said earlier in this thread the PY system is for the use of sailing clubs, and without them would not exist. A PN is given to a class based on all returns for that class from the previous three years. Whether a PN is Primary, Secondary, Recorded or Expermiental is based upon the number of returns. The splits arent set as an exact number and will float slightly each year.

We all know that clubs should be adjusting if using the PY system properly, but possibly more than many I am fully aware of the issues of trying to convince a sailing committee that that is what they should be doing. Hopefully the RYA and PYAG will have some developments available soon to aid in this area and make the numbers slightly more accessible.
I doubt we will be making the digests (the bible as far as the PYAG go as this is the document that has all returns in) available publically, but I have never withheld information within reason when asked.

Chris

 
Hi Chris
 
I am a supporter of the handicap system (although I think it should continue to be improved) and I am grateful for the hard work put in by the volunteers. 
 
My question is why would you (I mean the RYA) not publish the data (the digests)?  What do you gain from not publishing?  If the data were in the public domain then there would be much less scepticism and fewer accusations of its all done with 'smoke and mirrors' or by 'finger in the air' or worse. 
 
More than that, if the data were in the public domain, then other things could become possible.  For example, it might be possible to arrange for a PhD student to do a project on the data under the joint supervision of a suitable academic statistician and the PYAG.  That way a lot of data analysis might get done relatively cheaply and the system could become really well based.  We would have answers to the types of questions this forum raises (e.g. what is the spread of the data for class X? does class Y really do better in strong winds than class Z? etc etc).
 
Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 5:27pm
How significant is class racing if a class in a club
 a large proportion of numbers are made up of boats that are uncompetative (clapped out) and badly maintained, do they need a handicap to compete on equal terms? Should crew weight be handicaped, lightweights are favoured in sailing so let's give them a leg up if it blows? Where should the line be drawn?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by Thunder Road

How significant is class racing if a class in a club
 a large proportion of numbers are made up of boats that are uncompetative (clapped out) and badly maintained, do they need a handicap to compete on equal terms? Should crew weight be handicaped, lightweights are favoured in sailing so let's give them a leg up if it blows? Where should the line be drawn?


Ooooooh nasty Thunder Road, you've just blown the facade of club 'fleet racing' wide open.... Next you'll be telling the oppy sailors that Santa really doesn't have a loft making Rooster hiking shorts and new binoculars for Daddy ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 6:22pm
You can draw the line wherever it suits you...

At my club we run a race every summer with an age related handicap for the over 55 (sailors) for instance.
We also run a personal handicap alongside the main club ones for a couple of series.
We use boat age related handicaps on some development classes...
At their series the CVRDA, in conjunction with the hosting clubs, give adjustments for wooden spars or cotton sails
whatever suits your club is fine...

The system is, as the RYA say, run for the clubs, and the clubs are free to use it anyway it suits the individual club...

Edited by JimC - 12 Jan 12 at 6:28pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by JimC

You can draw the line wherever it suits you...

At my club we run a race every summer with an age related handicap for the over 55 (sailors) for instance.
We also run a personal handicap alongside the main club ones for a couple of series.
We use boat age related handicaps on some development classes...
At their series the CVRDA, in conjunction with the hosting clubs, give adjustments for wooden spars or cotton sails
whatever suits your club is fine...

The system is, as the RYA say, run for the clubs, and the clubs are free to use it anyway it suits the individual club...
 
+1
 
Well said Jim. Just a shame more clubs are not like yours really. There a lot who say 'that is the PY, like it or lump it' which, I understand, was never the point of the system it was there as a guide rather than as gospel.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Thunder Road

How significant is class racing if a class in a club
 a large proportion of numbers are made up of boats that are uncompetative (clapped out) and badly maintained, do they need a handicap to compete on equal terms? Should crew weight be handicaped, lightweights are favoured in sailing so let's give them a leg up if it blows? Where should the line be drawn?

We have fleet racing of RS400's. Well, it's a PY race with a lot of 400's in it usually.
Not a big club, 7 RS400's in total.
I think that through the season last year every 400 beat every other 400 on at least one occassion, apart from one team who are in their first year of 400 ownership.
On average we know who is going to win, but it's close enough that we can keep the best of our sailors on their toes.
We are talking about boats ranging from this year's facelift back to 3 -figure numbers, with a range of sailors from 2 bloke teams, couples random press-ganged crews etc. A fair range of crew weight too.
I suspect the fact that we are tidal helps keep things a little random. My boat is not quite the oldest, but I've never managed to convince myself I'd gain much by buying a new one.
So long as you have a fairly good jib, you have few excuses.
We are light compared to the top helm, but don't feel disadvantaged in F5, it's a bit of a slog upwind sometimes, but we plane first and/or run deeper downwind.
Also, some of the most enjoyable races are not the ones you win!

Regarding the PY element, I'm happy to accept the RYA list as is, I would not want local changes, too personal, too little data, too many variables. Unless you are lucky enough to have a very good statistician in your club, it's better left alone in my view. We don't happen to have anyone detached enough, sufficiently skilled in maths, or with nothing better to do.
In a small PY fleet, fiddling with the numbers comes down to a personal judgement that 'Kevin' is beating 'Jerry' too often. You can hide that behind distributions and opaque formulae, but that's what it is.

At the end of the year, the prizes are not all on the same table, that helps keep people happy.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 8:28pm
The online system offers localised recommendations AFAIK. You've just made an excellent sales pitch for the 400, which i note has benefitted from a relatively stable Primary Number for a while now; however not all 'club class' playing fields are as level. Good shout for your club imo, however if you kept getting whooped by a (insert bandit here) you may have a different view about localised adjustment.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 8:54pm
I get 'whooped' by all the so called bandits, phantoms, Blaze, N12 ...i'm sure it has nothing to do with me sailing an inappropriate boat for the venue - oh no! Ouch
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 9:00pm
Neptune

It would help quite a lot if your hull got to stay under that mast for more of the time !! ;-) 

Mike L.

PS  ... the 600 we know is a really tough challenge at BSC .. and would be for anyone.   Your 'bandit list' looks rather short  to me !


Edited by blaze720 - 12 Jan 12 at 9:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Neptune Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 12 at 9:04pm
Originally posted by blaze720

Neptune

It would help quite a lot if your hull got to stay under that mast for more of the time !! ;-) 

Mike L.

PS  ... the 600 we know is a really tough challenge at BSC .. and would be for anyone.
 
Possibly - but where would the fun in that be.  I work on the basis that I get closer on the water racing sailing in a hare and tortoise fashion anyway  Big smile
 
We all sail for the challenge i suspect - I enjoy my challenge and i know if i have sailed well at Burghfield without looking at the results.
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