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water for starboard boat?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote x1testpilot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: water for starboard boat?
    Posted: 01 Nov 11 at 11:19pm
situation: Beating to windward just before start, A on port, B on port, pretty close, B to stbd and ahead of A, but overlapped. C, same relationship to B. C suddenly sees D on starboard and tacks to avoid. C is taking without any indication, B tacks to only just avoid big collision and hits A.

Who is in right or wrong?

B claims rule 13, effectively C cannot tack in his water.
C claims he has to tack and there is no need to hail and that A and B should know about D and have already tacked.
There used to be a hail of water for sarboard boat, does that, or did it ever, exist as a rule?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:52am
I think Rule 20.1 is what you are looking for: room to tack at an obstruction. A right of way boat can be an obstruction.

Inevitably in a hearing I think you'd want to know more about the circumstances.
Did D change course or in any other way make it difficult for C to avoid them.
Could C have dome anything else other than tack?
Could B have done anything else other than tack?
How close were A and B, all sorts of stuff.

It seems most likely to me that C was asleep, didn't spot the right of way boat and crash tacked without the required hail, so most likely C cops a DSQ under rule 13 and B is exonerated.
However I can imagine circumstances in which almost any of the boats could end up with a DSQ - if D had changed course they could get a DSQ under 16.2 for instance, and if A had made no attempt to miss B but just ploughed in they might be vulnerable under rule 14.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 11:36am
Basically there are many potential ways it could play out in the room, very few of them end well for C.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 7:07pm
Not only is C required to hail, but she must give A and B room to respond. Once B hears a hail she should ask A for room to tack.

C almost certaiinly breaks rule 20.1,  and 13.

D may have broken a rule if either she had just tacked on to starboard, or changed course not leaving C room to keep clear, (16.1 or 16.2)

Was there a protest? If not, why not? It could be claimed that D deliberately broke a rule, thus breaking rule 2. In match racing she would probably have been given a double penalty.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:20pm
Thanks Gordon.  I can recall the day in a team race when I got Umpire penalised as b with no hail from C.  You can tell it still rankles from the fact I remember it!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by gordon

Not only is C required to hail, but she must give A and B room to respond. Once B hears a hail she should ask A for room to tack.

Rule 20.1(a) only obliges C to give B time to respond, not room.
 
If A hears C's hail and will have to respond before the hailing boat is able to tack, she is a ‘hailed boat’ in the context of rule 20.1 and she shall respond accordingly [without the need for B to hail A] (Case 113).
Originally posted by gordon


C almost certainly breaks rule 20.1, and 13.
 
C can only break rule 20 if she hails for room to tack.
 
There HAS to be a hail for rule 20 to apply at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 11 at 11:28pm
If a boat tacks to avoid an obstruction without hailing, she breaks rule 20 in so far as she has not met the obligations that permit her to be exonerated from breaking a rule of section Aor rules 15 or 16.

In this incident C tacks to avoid D without hailing, she does not comply with the requiremants of rule 20 therefore the rules of section A and rules 15 and 16 apply.

B cannot assume that A has heard C's hail, so they should hail A

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:16am
The question is does Boat C have to hail?

Rule 20 seems to say "a boat.... MAY hail for room to tack and avoid....." seemingly implying that it doesn't have to do it.

I'm assuming it does if it wants to tack.
(I'm under the impression that there is only one situation ever in sailing where you have to say anything and this is it?).

The other issue is that another boat that is hailing for water to tack is an 'obstruction' - again I assume so.

(PS I was crew in this boat with Martin on this occasion)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:39am
Until C hails for room to tack she is leeward ROW boat on A and B. As such, she is obliged to give both A and B rom to keep clear should she change course, and, if she passes beyond head to wind, must keep clear of both.

By hailing, and giving both A and B time to respond, C switches off both of these obligations.

If C decides to dip below D, on starboard, she must give room to both A and B should they decide to do likewise. D then has obligations under rules 16.1 and 16.2

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 11 at 11:43am
No, you don't *have* to hail for room to tack. You can let the sails out and stop, or do a variety of other things to avoid the obstruction.

But rule 13 prevents you tacking in someone else's water. If you want the exception to this rule 20 provides then you must hail.

As for obstruction: this is covered in the definitions. You do need to read and understand the definitions, otherwise the rules don't work. I believe that in the RYA publications the defnitions are at the front, which to my mind makes a lot more sense than putting them at the back like the ISAF rule book does.

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