New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Three boats at the leeward mark
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Three boats at the leeward mark

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Wobble View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 26 Jul 10
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 44
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Three boats at the leeward mark
    Posted: 19 Aug 11 at 5:06pm
Three boats are approaching the leeward mark, about even distance but spread between a high, middle and low course down the leg. All on port. Wind is moderate, speed fairly fast.

About 7 lengths out, the higher boat gybes onto starboard, and promptly informs the middle boat that he has rights Star. Middle boat Shocked hails to lower boat to give room. Lower boat declines to do so and holds course Evil Smile. (It is later disputed whether, at this point in the proceedings, the boats are in the zone, and middle boat has an overlap on the lower boat Confused.) For middle and lower boat, this all happens very fast.

Starboard boat makes (mild) contact with middle boat Ouch. Shouting, mostly at lower boat, ensues Angry.

Who is at fault? Dead

Who is innocent? Big smile
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6383
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Aug 11 at 6:36pm
Best to have a diagram for this. A good start would be to tell us whether its a port or starboard rounding!
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1050
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Aug 11 at 1:26am
A diagram would have helped cut down on the options, but here's the full banana.
 
Doesn't matter which hand the leeward mark is, because mark-room is irrelevant.
 
It would be up to the protest committee to decide:  key issue would be whether M needed room to gybe away from W be given by L.
 

General

Firstly, no matter whether this is in the zone or not, when W gybes onto starboard, she gains right of way over both M and L (rule 10).  M, to windward, must also give way to L, to leeward (rule 11), but M, sandwiched between two boats, each of which has right of way, is entitled to room to get out of the sandwich under rule 19.2(b).

When W gybes onto starboard she becomes an obstruction to both M and L (definition of obstruction).  If M and L are overlapped, L must give L room between her and the obstruction (rule 19.2(b).  If M and L are not overlapped, there is no entitlement to room under rule 19.2.

L advanced on M

If L is clear ahead of M, rule 19.2(b) does not apply, but in that case, M does not need L to give room because M can keep clear of W by gybing astern of L.

If L is well advanced on M, but still overlapped, rule 19.2(b) will apply, but it will be a question for the protest committee to decide whether M, to keep clear of W, needed room to be given by L, or whether there was room for M to gybe and keep clear of W, without L doing anything.  If it is necessary for L to give room and she did not do so, L breaks rule 19.2(b) and should be penalised.

Neither L nor M significantly advanced on the other

If neither L nor M is significantly advanced on the other, as long as they are not massively separated, M will need room from L to keep clear of W and if L does not give room she breaks rule 19.2(b) and should be penalised.

M advanced on L

If M is clear ahead of L, rule 19.2(b) does not apply, but M does not need L to give room to gybe away from W, because M is initially right of way (rule 12), then after gybing remains right of way (rule 10), and is not even required to give L room to keep clear under rule 15 because she has not acquired right of way by the gybe.

If M is well advanced on L, but still overlapped, once again the protest committee would need to decide whether there was room for M to gybe away from W without L doing anything, or whether L needed to take some action to give M the room she was entitled to.  If it was necessary for L to take action to give M room and she did not do so she breaks rule 19.2(b) and should be penalised.

Effect of mark-room

Whether boats had reached the zone or not is irrelevant.  Although one or other of L or M would have gained an entitlement to mark-room, this would not affect Lís obligation, if any, to give M room to keep clear of W under rule 19.2(b) (Case 114:  room includes room to keep clear or give room).

 
Back to Top
Wobble View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 26 Jul 10
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 44
Post Options Post Options   Quote Wobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 11 at 12:15pm
Should have said ... port rounding.

Thanks Brass for that very comprehensive explanation. The situation was 'Neither L nor M significantly advanced on the other'. I wonder if W would be penalised for making contact.
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1050
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 11 at 1:00pm
You say there was 'mild' contact between W and M.  I take it that this means that the contact caused no injury or damage.
Rule 14 is the avoiding contact rule.
 
As far as you describe, there was nothing hindering W from gybing back and avoiding contact with M.
 
W did not avoid contact with M when it was reasonably possible to do so.  W broke rule 14
 
Rule 14(b) provides that a right of way boat that breaks rule 14 shall not be penalised if the damage did not cause damage or injury, so although W broke rule 14, she shall not be penalised for the breach.
 
If L was not giving M room to pass between L and W, then it was not reasonably possible for M to avoid contact with W.
 
M did not break rule 14.
 
There was no contact with L.  L did not break rule 14.
Back to Top
Contender443 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 01 Oct 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1206
Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 11 at 10:54am
I would have thought at 7 boat lengths the windward boat has all the tactical advantage but maybe not the rights until they gybe onto starboard.
 
However even if W does not gybe at 7 boat lengths out the 2 leeward boats will need to start thinking about giving water to W if there is any overlap or close to being one. Basically the outside of the 3 is stuffed. 
 
If I was W at 7 boat lengths I would make my intention clear that I want water at the mark and expect to see boats in preparation. After all it may take a few boat lengths for them to realise that they will need to give mark room.
Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy