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taking a windward mark too wide

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jul 11 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
Very occasionally, it can be a whole landmass...
But then who's going to get within the 3 boat length zone at Cape Horn Wink
Indeed.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 9:07am
Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
 
Are you sure on this? I am led to believe that a right of way boat is also an obstructions as is a large patch of weed therefore you are allowed to call for 'room' to avoid that obstruction (which include tacking in certain circumstances, see the thread that has the 'Rainmaker' discussion...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 9:51am
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.

Are you sure on this? I am led to believe that a right of way boat is also an obstructions as is a large patch of weed

Yes, yes, [sigh]. There is a specific definition of what an obstruction is in the rules, and its all about the size of the object. Most racing marks are smaller than boats and large patches of weed.

Obstruction An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 22 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.


The definitions are vitally important parts of the rules, it really is important to know them. The way people think its probably a bad idea to have them at the back of the rule book. I reckon they should be at the front.

Edited by JimC - 22 Jul 11 at 9:53am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 11:54am
Originally posted by JimC



The definitions are vitally important parts of the rules, it really is important to know them. The way people think its probably a bad idea to have them at the back of the rule book. I reckon they should be at the front.
 
 
Totally agree.  If you don't know what the words mean how can you understand the rules?
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 12:42pm
The problem was that Brass stated that 'Usually only a large shipping buoy....' without qualifying the statement. (Hence to comment about large land masses which was definitely tongue in cheek and my comment about other smaller obstructions).
  
Not everyone (myself included) has the time to read all the definitions. To me it is common sense that a racing mark is not an obstruction as it is part of the course.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by jeffers

To me it is common sense that a racing mark is not an obstruction as it is part of the course.

Common sense will get you in trouble. Its easily possible for a racing mark to be an obstruction.

The definitions are there specifically because the ordinary english sense of the words may be unclear or contradictory. To be brutally honest if you are saying you are too busy to read the definitions you are saying you are too busy to read the rules, because its not possible to understand some of the rules adequately without knowing the definitions they rely on.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

 Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
Are you sure on this? I am led to believe that a right of way boat is also an obstructions as is a large patch of weed

Yes, yes, [sigh]. There is a specific definition of what an obstruction is in the rules, and its all about the size of the object. Most racing marks are smaller than boats and large patches of weed.

Obstruction An object that a boat could not pass without changing course substantially, if she were sailing directly towards it and one of her hull lengths from it. An object that can be safely passed on only one side and an area so designated by the sailing instructions are also obstructions. However, a boat racing is not an obstruction to other boats unless they are required to keep clear of her or, if rule 22 applies, avoid her. A vessel under way, including a boat racing, is never a continuing obstruction.


The definitions are vitally important parts of the rules, it really is important to know them. The way people think its probably a bad idea to have them at the back of the rule book. I reckon they should be at the front.
Thanks JimC, I was talking aboout buoys or marks that might or might not be obstructions.
 
Of course right of way boats or larege pieces of South America can be obstructions.
 
The reason that the Definitions are at the back fo the RRS books is so that they are easier to find:  just flip to the last page and there they are.  If you have ever used the Elvstrom Explains books where they are at the front of the rules, but behind the title pages, contents etc, you will understand the difficulty.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote laser193713 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 11 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by laser193713

I have always understood it that once A is past the mark, no longer overlapped with it, they lose all protection from rule 18 and then B becomes ROW boat in that situation.  At the end of the day it is A that has gybed onto port while B may still have been on starboard so A is in the wrong then.  If A luffs B hard then B has to avoid the mark which is an obstruction so A must give B room to do so as she is now reapproaching the mark. 

I always think it is easier to picture mark rules when the boats are large yachts rather than dinghies.  It is so easy in dinghies to get off a mark when hooked but imagine the consequences for a yacht doing this and getting forced onto a mark, particularly a metal racing mark. If A was to steer a course as shown they could be penalised for deliberately causing a collision if there was one because of the massive angle they have steered through in such a short space of time.
Yes, once A is past the mark and no longer 'at the mark' she ceases to meet the condition prescribed in rule 18.5 for her to be entitled to exoneration for breaking a part 2 rule.  Rule 18,2(b), however, continues to apply, while ever Boat A remains in the zone (rule 18.2(c)), and if A once again sails 'to the mark' or becomes 'at the mark', Boat B must, again, give A mark-room.
 
A, having gybed onto Port is not in the wrong unless she fails to keep clear of B and somehow or other is not sailing 'to the mark' or 'at the mark'.  In all probability, if A is 'reapproaching the mark' she is sailing 'to the mark' and entitled to mark-room to do so.   Once A is 'at the mark', provided her proper course is to luff, she may luff as hard as she likes, because rule 18.5 expressly gives her exoneration for breaking rule 16.   A is absolutely entitled to 'slam the door' on B.
 
Why do you say the mark is an obstruction?  OP provided no evidence to suggest that it was.  It should not be assumed that every mark is an obstruction.  Normally racing marks, even of they are of metal or other solid construction, will be so designed that they are small enough that a boat one of her hull lengths from the mark would not need to change course substantially to pass and thus they do not meet the definition of Obstruction in the rules.  Usually only a large shipping buoy is big enough to be an Obstruction.
 
Whether the mark is an obstruction or not is somewhat irrelevant, even if it was an obstruction, while ever at least one of Boats A or B is in the zone, rule 18 continues to apply (rule 18.1), and when rule 18 applies, rule 19 does not (rule 19.1), except where the mark is a continuing obstruction (rule 18.1(c)).
 
If A is taking mark-room to which she is entitled at the mark, her only 'unexoneratable' obligation, for which she can be penalised, is to avoid contact with B causing damage or injury (rule 14(b)).  If there was contact between A and B without damage at the point of contact but which forced B into contact with a mark which caused damage to B (whether the mark was an obstruction or not:  say a fitting on the mark gouged B's topsides), then A would have broken rule 14 and, on valid protest, would be liable to a penalty.
 
There is no rule against 'causing a collision'.  I suggest that, when discussing the rules, it is best to try to use the language of the rules themselves.  It prevents misunderstandings.
 
I don't agree that it is best to visualise rules applying to 'large yachts':  probably better to envisage small racing keelboats, 20 to 30 feet, or larger, heavier dinghies, as what the original rule developers had in mind, although the racing rules committees are ever mindful of small dinghies (and giant multi-hulls). 


Interesting break down there, I agree with a lot of what is said here, but interpret the rules slightly differently perhaps.  I would not say that having passed the mark and gybing back towards it that A is sailing to the mark, in fact A is sailing to the next mark of the course, yes she is sailing towards the windward mark again but is NOT sailing to it. Remember that B is not expected to anticipate the sudden gybe of A, the diagram shows A sailing a reasonable distance before making this gybe and in many classes of dinghy and yacht this could be a plenty large enough gap to take.

Correct me if I am wrong, my rules knowledge is fairly strong but without a rulebook in front of me quoting rules word for word or by number is beyond my memory LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 11 at 12:24am
Originally posted by jeffers

The problem was that Brass stated that 'Usually only a large shipping buoy....' without qualifying the statement. (Hence to comment about large land masses which was definitely tongue in cheek and my comment about other smaller obstructions).
  
Not everyone (myself included) has the time to read all the definitions. To me it is common sense that a racing mark is not an obstruction as it is part of the course.
 
Sorry Paul,
I may, in quoting Brass, have inadvertently taken away the context of 'racing marks being obstructions' (nothing to do with 'obstructions' in any other way).
My tongue in cheek comment about the large land mass, was made knowing that Cape Horn is a course mark in round the world yacht races. I guess if I had used the Fastnet rock lighthouse instead, it may have been better understood.
Andy Mc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ob1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 11 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Brass

Yes, once A is past the mark and no longer 'at the mark' she ceases to meet the condition prescribed in rule 18.5 for her to be entitled to exoneration for breaking a part 2 rule.  Rule 18,2(b), however, continues to apply, while ever Boat A remains in the zone (rule 18.2(c)), and if A once again sails 'to the mark' or becomes 'at the mark', Boat B must, again, give A mark-room.
 
A, having gybed onto Port is not in the wrong unless she fails to keep clear of B and somehow or other is not sailing 'to the mark' or 'at the mark'.  In all probability, if A is 'reapproaching the mark' she is sailing 'to the mark' and entitled to mark-room to do so.   Once A is 'at the mark', provided her proper course is to luff, she may luff as hard as she likes, because rule 18.5 expressly gives her exoneration for breaking rule 16.   A is absolutely entitled to 'slam the door' on B.
 
I don't agree that it is best to visualise rules applying to 'large yachts':  probably better to envisage small racing keelboats, 20 to 30 feet, or larger, heavier dinghies, as what the original rule developers had in mind, although the racing rules committees are ever mindful of small dinghies (and giant multi-hulls). 
 
I agree that it is sensible to try to understand what the rule developers had in mind. 
 
In this case though, is there any evidence (in the casebook etc) that the rule developers intended that a boat could be sailing 'to the mark' or 'at the mark' more than once in any single rounding of a mark? 
 
Hasn't a boat passed a mark, once that mark stops affecting the boat's course? - if so, then once a boat has stopped being 'at the mark' for "mark n", it is then surely sailing to the next mark of the course("mark n+1") and not back to "mark n"?

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