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Oppostie Gybes, leeward Mark

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asterix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 12:12pm

as another example of where the rules could be clearer, the rules do not define what a 'gybe' is, and so given:

'Tack, Starboard or Port A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side.' and

Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.'

it is not actually clear if '...room to tack' includes room to change tack by gybing.  The problem is that Tack is defined as an adjective but seems also to be used in the rules as a verb.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 3:22pm
Tack the noun, when used with port or starboard,is defined in the rules. Other uses of the word tack, as a noun or as a verb are not defined (which is why rule 13 is written the way it is). Therefore the dictionary definition applies.

Therefore, the expression "room to tack" which only applies to a windward inside overlapped boat does not include a room to gybe.

Similarily in rule 20 room to tack only applies to boats sailing close hauled or higher.

There is a definition of gybing in the rules - but only for match racing - C.2.4. Rule 15 deals with most situations where a boat changes tack by gybing and thus gains righ of way.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sailing4Life Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 4:20pm
Surely in the ISAF case book, case 75 gives you enough
explanation gordon.

http://game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case75.htm

Although not with kites the principle is the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 5:12pm
Agreed - mark room is the space ( a direct corridor) needed to sail from point of entry to zone to a position close to and alongside the mark on the requiired side. A keep clear boat entitled to mark room must sail along this corridor. A boat with right of way is not required to remain within that corridor but must comply with other rules (15, 16, 17, 18.4 may apply).

If you open out the angles so that boats are broad reaching into mark on opposite gybes then 18.4 becomes important. There is a limit to how far S may sail before gybing. If when she gybes she is no longer ROW boat then she must then sail directly to a position close to and alongside the mark on the required side

Incidentally, in the the ISAF Case Book boats have kites.

Gordon


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Post Options Post Options   Quote asterix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 5:52pm

Hi Gordon

Thanks for this - I was unaware of C2.4 13.2 and that is really interesting.  It seems a shame to me that 13.1 and C2.4 13.2 arn't included as definitions in the glossary and generally applicable.

David

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 8:48pm
Originally posted by Sailing4Life

Surely in the ISAF case book, case 75 gives you enough
explanation gordon.

http://game.finckh.net/reg_gbr/cases/case75.htm

Although not with kites the principle is the same.


Bingo S4Life. the protest committee sided with me.

Port has no rights apart from 16.1 or if 18.4 is broken.

To answer JimC: the case shows an overlap situation, while of course a STB boat clear ahead would also be able to do this with port boats behind giving her mark room if they piled in faster on top of her.

This case shows exactly my concerns, but also that the rules are in order of precedence where not modified to give exclusions: My points are:

 1) ambiguity is caused by an oversimplification of the definition of "mark room" and the mix of 10,11 and 16.1 into 18/18.4: the definition "mark room" should have "her proper course while still within the zone" instead of "sail to the mark"  IMHO.

  2) people should be able to sail reasonably wide in, tight out at the LM : this is what we all expect to happen  , this is good sailing:  a gybe is already accounted for in 18.4. and so should a "Proper course" rounding before and at the mark

 3) coming in on starboard to a port fleet is still a killer tactic!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 10:23pm
Unfortunately for damp freddie judges apply the rules as written not as damp freddie wishes they were written!

Rules 16 and 18.4 give no rights to a keep clear boat - they impose limitations on a right of way boat.

There is an order of precedence in Part 2 of the rules:

Rules of Section A ALWAYS apply and they define which boat is keep clear boat
Rules of Section B impose limitations on the action of the right of way boat
Rules of Section C imposes limitations on the action of a right of way boat at marks and obstructions, and may give limited entitlemnents and exonerations to a keep clear boat

The key thing to remember is that having mark room on its own only entitles you to a very limited corridor to sail to the mark. You can only do a tactical rounding at a mark (wide in tight out) in the presence of other boats IF you are right of away boat. However ROW way boat must still (until they are at the mark) comply with rules 15, 16 17 and 18.4.

A tactical rounding is not necessarily "good sailing" - it is "good racing" - which is far from being the same thing.

18.4 only applies in limited circumstances - limiting the rights of an inside overlapped right of way boat. 18.4 ceases to apply when boat ceases to have right of way and 18.2a or b applies.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 11:36pm
the protest committee sided with me.

That doesn't make them right any more than the collective
view on this forum might be right (or wrong).

So what we were the facts found in this case?
Garry

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Jun 10 at 11:59pm
Originally posted by damp_freddie


Originally posted by Sailing4Life

case 75

Bingo S4Life. the protest committee sided with me.

[sigh] No, they didn't. You still seem to be missing the difference between mark room and ROW. In case 75 the inside boat is the ROW boat and can sail where it likes.

The crucial bit about that case for this discussion is that it confirms, in the language Gordon used, the narrow corridor straight to the mark.

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jun 10 at 12:37pm
Strange how something that is usually straight forward on the water becomes difficult when being described. When running down to a mark, the outer (stb) boat will generally leave enough space for the inner (port) boat to make it round the mark, but not more. It really is human nature. Phrases like "you've plenty of room" will often be heard. I've not come across too many people who expect enough room in a situation like that to sail a supertanker through, but it does happen.
One other thing to be aware of in handicap racing is that the inside boat needs enough room to fit that sort of boat through, so a Wayfarer needs a Wayfarer sized hole, not a hole the Topper leaving the space might have needed...
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