New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Tricky...proper course question.
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Tricky...proper course question.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tricky...proper course question.
    Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 5:52pm
It is a pursuit race.  I am on a reaching leg from A to B on port tack.  A faster boat approaches from astern and to leeward, also on port tack.  I have a clear overlap on reaching B and call for water.  He replies that I have no right of way and that he is sailing his proper course.  He does impede my mark rounding but there is no contact.  He is pretty angry that I got round inside him, arguing that he was sailing his proper course and that I had no right of way. 

On shore it transpires that he had in fact already rounded B (probably while I was doing one of my many swims) and was not approaching it as a rounding mark but was in fact on his way, having recovered from his own capsize, to C.  (From B to C is a windward leg, he has not yet tacked but is still in the vicinity and to leeward of B, even though he has already rounded it.)

His argument is that he was entitled to squeeze me out at B because he was sailing his proper course to C.  I am fairly sure he is wrong about this - 'proper course' surely only is useable in the absence of other boats - but I was there.  So I'm also fairly sure he also had to give me water at B - even though I was windward boat, surely he could not argue I had no right of way?  Does the two boat length rule apply, even if we are (sort of) on different legs of the course?  Or is it enough that he can't simply shove me up out of the way?

Or am I completely wrong?




Edited by winging it
the same, but different...

Back to Top
Noah View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 29 Dec 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 589
Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 6:24pm
I don't know for sure but I would think the two-boat rule doesn't apply because the buoy is not a mark odf the course for the leeward boat. If so that leaves a straight windward / leedward situation & you just have to slow down, let him go through then you're clear to make your mark rounding.

Presumably its a Port rounding?

Question I would ask myself is: What would I have done if I had known at the time that B wasn't a mark of the course for the other boat?

Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6383
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 6:25pm
Well rule 18 doesn't apply since it only applies "when boats are about to round or pass a mark *they* are
required to leave on the same side". In this case clearly they aren't. So therefore it must be all about rule 11/17 and I reckon that means that he may sail *his* proper course.
Back to Top
Scooby_simon View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 02 Apr 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2415
Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 08 at 7:17pm

Agree with Jim;

He has rights to sail his proper course; you have to live with the fact it takes you away from where you want to go.  I'm afraid you are in the wrong.

Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
Back to Top
JohnW View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 Jul 07
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 552
Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:23am
If he capsized after rounding B and then drifted back below B in such a way that he subsequently had to leave it to port (ie his wake as a piece of string required him to pass that side) would he not be considered to be still rounding the mark?.

If on the other hand he had drifted down during the capsize so that his wake wrapped around the mark he would not still be required to leave B to port and therefore would not be rounding the mark.

As you say that he had not tacked I would think the first option applies and you could be in the right (not sure though).

Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:02pm
The problem is, I have little idea where he came from - he says he was ahead of me and had already rounded B, but I did not see him pass me, hence the confusion and my thinking he was rounding the mark like I was.  I certainly did not see him up to windward of me during my reach down from A.

Also, the course was such that if he had rounded B and then got blown back to leeward of it, the most efficient course for him would not have been to go anywhere near B - he had been sailing to leeward of me for some time before the mark rounding incident and because he was in a Vago compared to my Pico, he sailed through my lee.  When he did this he was certainly within two boat lengths of me, so I would be invoking:

Rule 17.1  If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat.

What I would be asking him would be, why was he reaching down towards B - he must have sailed a good five boats lengths on that reach before showing any signs of heading up to tack - he only seemed to want to once he was in a position to stuff me at the mark, why did he not tack up and go behind me - a much more direct route to C than going out of his way towards B? and also, why did he not start sailing upwind as soon as he had recovered from his capsize?   Surely that would have been more representative of a 'proper course'?

Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to  alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6383
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by winging it

Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to  alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course.

It doesn't really matter what you believe I'm afraid. There is no requirement to sail properly. He can sail off his proper course for as long as he likes provided he gives you room to keep clear once he decides to head up to it.
Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:06pm
I have to say that I tend to put a cynical interpretation on it - I had been leading the race for a long time and he had a lot to gain by stuffing me at the mark.
the same, but different...

Back to Top
winging it View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 22 Mar 07
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3958
Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by winging it

Whatever the answers, I don't think he was entitled to  alter course as he did when he had been holding his course below me for sufficiently long that I actually believed it was his proper course.

It doesn't really matter what you believe I'm afraid. There is no requirement to sail properly. He can sail off his proper course for as long as he likes provided he gives you room to keep clear once he decides to head up to it.


The point is, he wasn't giving me room to keep clear, he was trying to shove me head to wind at the mark - it wasn't just a question of not being allowed water. 
the same, but different...

Back to Top
iansmithofotley View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Otley, West Yorkshire
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 209
Post Options Post Options   Quote iansmithofotley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 08 at 5:03pm

Hi 'winging it',

It may be that Rule 22.2 applies, depending on the circumstances:

Rule 22.2 - A boat shall not change course if her only purpose is to interfere with a boat making a penalty turn or one on another leg or lap of the course.

If the other boat had already rounded the mark, that you were heading for, then I think that it was then on a different leg, and therefore, should not have purposely interfered with you. There again, I may be wrong.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

 



Edited by iansmithofotley
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy