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RRS 18 Rule change proposal

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: RRS 18 Rule change proposal
    Posted: 24 May 22 at 1:06pm
Copied from https://www.racingrulesofsailing.org/posts/1531-2022-test-rule-18-information-please-read-before-posting?forum_id=15.

The World Sailing Rule 18 Working Party is trying to find ways to simplify rule 18 (Mark-Room) without making significant changes to the current game. We have created a test rule 18 for 2022 which is 20% shorter than the current rule, removing much extraneous and complex wording. It contains simplifications such as making mark-room the same for all inside boats whether they have the right-of-way or not and whether the leeward mark is a single mark or a gate mark, creating a clear end point for when rule 18 stops applying, and allowing boats to gybe at the windward or offset marks when their proper course is to gybe.

The Rule 18 WP is inviting sailors and race officials around the world to study the test rule, take the 2022 Test Rule 18 Quiz, and if possible use the test rule in their racing between now and July 15, 2022.

To take the virtual 2022 Test Rule 18 Quiz, click here

If you are interested in organizing the use of the 2022 Test Rule 18 between now and July 15, 2022, or know of any fleets, clubs or classes which may be interested, email Dave Perry

To access the 2022 Test Rule 18 information online site, click here
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 1:11pm
It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room.
Two reasons why I'm unconvinced, firstly that in practice its a very difficult call to make as to which boat reached the circle first, and secondly there's no real last point of certainty possible. It would be an unusual possibility, but I would be very interested to know why its considered better than the current situation that a boat which isn't overlapped never has mark room.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 9:06pm
Read it, then started the quiz, got to the explanation part and realised I didn't have Time to compare the old and the new. I am pleased that the rules are being looked at, but, replacing one set of complicated rules with another is a pointless exercise.
I believe the rules are fine as they are, massively complicated, but have developed organically over the years, clubs can simplify if they need.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 



Edited by ClubRacer - 25 May 22 at 6:04pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by ClubRacer

Originally posted by JimC

It mostly looks very promising to me. There does seem to be a potential game change I don't like - If I understand the material correctly, in the event that a boat clear behind reaches the circle before a boat clear ahead then the boat clear behind gets mark room..

I presume on the current rule it doesn't specify that its only when the first boat reaches the zone. Only when overlapped, which they clearly aren't? After reading all of this I couldn't tell you why I thought with the current rules 1 would be entitled to mark room from 2 but 3 wouldn't be entitled. I've just always thought they were

Other than that I thought it was definitely easier to apply the rules on the test compared to the old one. 

In that drawing, if marks are left to port, 1 will bear away around about the edge of the zone, either creating an overlap or reasonable doubt.

Personally I would have the whole rule re-written based on a flowchart or something.

I have seen confusion at a leeward mark between asy boats entering the zone from the sides and blow-along boats entering from the top. People's honest, sincerely held beliefs about the sequence of events are often quite different, because they view from different points. Applying the rules is the easy bit sometimes.

I suppose it's a big ask to expect the same rules to work well for skiffs doing 20 knots and mirrors struggling to stem the tide.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:13pm
If I was boat 1, I would go another boat length, then gybe and blast the for the mark, gybe again for port rounding, sure to beat 2, give 3 a bit of a fright, but should beat her.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 7:27pm
I was mainly looking for what the current rules are for boats 1 and 2. 

My understanding is that in the proposed new rules that 1 would have to give room to 2 

18.2  Giving Mark-Room
(a) When the first of two boats reaches the zone,
       (1)  if the boats are overlapped, the outside boat at that moment shall give the inside boat mark-room.
       (2)  if the boats are not overlapped, the boat that has not reached the zone at that moment shall give the other boat mark-room.

They clearly aren't overlapped because 2 is clear astern of 1 at the point 2 reaches the zone. 

My confusion is on the current rules. It sounds as if with 18.2b that even if boat 2 was half way into the zone but 1 is still clear ahead as it reaches the zone 1 is entitled to mark room. 

I think in the real world you wouldn't see this scenario as 1 would just gybe heading for the mark and be overlapped anyway, I'm just curious on how to apply the rules here correctly.




Edited by ClubRacer - 25 May 22 at 7:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 8:09pm
Originally posted by 423zero

If I was boat 1, I would go another boat length, then gybe and blast the for the mark, gybe again for port rounding, sure to beat 2, give 3 a bit of a fright, but should beat her.
If I was boat 1, I'd have gone 'right hand down a bit' swinging my transom around to put 2 in an overlap and demanded mark room. If I was surely clear ahead, I wouldn't be off over there in the first place? If you're steering to miss the mark by 3 boatlengths for no immediate reason, what are you expecting to happen?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 8:14pm
Me too, but the helm put the boat there, then had a strop, threw the tiller at me and said if you can do better, carry on.
Robert
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 22 at 9:40pm
AIUI with the current rules boat 1 gets mark room from 2 & 3, being clear ahead when a boat reaches the zone, and boat 3 gets mark room from 2.

If I understand the experimental rule correctly then boat 2 gets mark room from 1 & 3, and boat 1 mark room from 2.

It would be interesting to hear the logic, and also how the last point of certainty principle would be handled, since I should have thought it rather hard to judge which boat had entered the zone first with widely separated boats like the sketch. We do need to remember, though, this is just a test rule, its not even got as far as being a proposed change.
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