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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 6:06am
Originally posted by 423zero

Grumpy, you are not one of My 'vitriols', only a couple in total anyway, amazing how someone can generate such bile in a couple of sentences.In this thread so far I think only one of them has posted.
Robert
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Paramedic View Drop Down
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Posts: 927 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 6:40am
Re coaching I think what the mid/rear end sailors want (further back you go the more they want it) is a top sailor - or someone much better than they are - to get in their boat and sail it with them. This identifies any major boat handling issues, immediately highlights any major boat set up problems and - most importantly - gives a huge confidence boost that their boat really is as fast as the rest if they do the right thing with it. If they retain 10 of the 100 things they learn in an hour they'll go better.

start practice, follow my leader, tacking on the whistle etc have their place but we don't all learn in the same way.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 7:14am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Re coaching I think what the mid/rear end sailors want (further back you go the more they want it) is a top sailor - or someone much better than they are - to get in their boat and sail it with them. This identifies any major boat handling issues, immediately highlights any major boat set up problems and - most importantly - gives a huge confidence boost that their boat really is as fast as the rest if they do the right thing with it. If they retain 10 of the 100 things they learn in an hour they'll go better.

start practice, follow my leader, tacking on the whistle etc have their place but we don't all learn in the same way.

We do quite a lot of this, but overtime I have concluded that those at the back of the fleet are less fanatical than those at the front.  When we have visiting gurus/coaches I am pretty sure that the attendees tend to be from the top half of the fleet.  This is not dissing those who are predominately bringing up the rear of the fleet, just suggesting that winning dinghy races may not be the reason that they turn up.

As an observer, I would suggest that the back quartile tend to form second rank on the start line, as though they don’t wish to interfere with the “front of the fleet”, and that they tend to take a passive role in how they sail their boats … these tend to be the areas that we focus in training but very little changes … which is why I think they are happy with the way they go about their sailing.

So maybe more important than coaching, is to focus on inclusivity both on and off the water?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2537 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 8:37am

Originally posted by Grumpycat

Even tt  is a pussy cat in comparison.  Wink
I wont even be upset if you think it me .  Smile


I'll leave to your lovefest for handicap racing, but it's interesting that generations of sailors below you have been brought up class racing and those fortunate enough to have selfless parents, might even have travelled to other parts of the country to experience the thrills of a mass start class race, yet they seem to be less interested in the club options going into adulthood.

Personally my attention span never really lended itself to much more than the first lap or two of big open/regattas, which is why I loved team racing and match racing, plus those winter training events usually provided me with my best sailing experiences in my own boats - lots of mini races (lovely - even won a few on occasion) and tacking on the whistle - when you and your mates get it right it's a thing of beauty.

Anyway, stuff PY racing, perhaps syncronised sailing to  music and firework show ought to be a recognised discipline?

Boat Ballet anyone?  Samba Sailing?  Slutty kite drops?

We could even form a tribute act - Grumpy Cat Dolls?


Edited by turnturtle - 24 May 22 at 8:39am
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 8:51am
Originally posted by davidyacht


We do quite a lot of this, but overtime I have concluded that those at the back of the fleet are less fanatical than those at the front.  When we have visiting gurus/coaches I am pretty sure that the attendees tend to be from the top half of the fleet.  This is not dissing those who are predominately bringing up the rear of the fleet, just suggesting that winning dinghy races may not be the reason that they turn up.

As an observer, I would suggest that the back quartile tend to form second rank on the start line, as though they don’t wish to interfere with the “front of the fleet”, and that they tend to take a passive role in how they sail their boats … these tend to be the areas that we focus in training but very little changes … which is why I think they are happy with the way they go about their sailing.

So maybe more important than coaching, is to focus on inclusivity both on and off the water?

Great observation DG. And those people contribute greatly to a happy fleet and often are the best company in the bar and the ones who do at least their fair share of the volunteering. 

Too often though, there’s also 
  • a toxic bully in mid-fleet who is sufficiently canny somehow to nevertheless avoid ever getting themselves a red card
  • a generally lovely person who struggles to put what they know into practice, gets frustrated with themselves and occasionally explodes like a volcano, catching innocent, inexperienced bystanders in their blast (the experienced know to avoid them)
Of course we should be inclusive but these two personality types, like the proverbial rotten apple can make all the good work pointless and wasted. But dealing with them can be very difficult; ultimately leopards don't change their spots.

Moving on, where the passive types you describe do sometimes need some guidance is on crossings with other boats; they see you coming, have all the rights, but don't want to “get in the way” so tack or change course unpredictably. Suddenly a no-big-deal becomes an oh-bloody-hell. This is one for a gentle word ashore of course, nothing else.
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 359 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 8:59am
Originally posted by davidyacht

 

We do quite a lot of this, but overtime I have concluded that those at the back of the fleet are less fanatical than those at the front.  When we have visiting gurus/coaches I am pretty sure that the attendees tend to be from the top half of the fleet.  This is not dissing those who are predominately bringing up the rear of the fleet, just suggesting that winning dinghy races may not be the reason that they turn up.

As an observer, I would suggest that the back quartile tend to form second rank on the start line, as though they don’t wish to interfere with the “front of the fleet”, and that they tend to take a passive role in how they sail their boats … these tend to be the areas that we focus in training but very little changes … which is why I think they are happy with the way they go about their sailing.

So maybe more important than coaching, is to focus on inclusivity both on and off the water?


Personally I think there is a lot of truth in this.

As many of you know it can be quite galling to regularly be told what your doing wrong by someone who clearly thinks you need to improve.

Coaching needs to be there as does friendly advice but these things need to be solicited otherwise they do more harm than good imo, particularly with adult novices.

If someone can get round the course without being a danger to themselves or anyone else leave them alone. They are adults who will ask if they need help.......many will ask.

Many will say that this is what is practised already? I would say not entirely.

On a different note......are there any clubs that have an appointed PR person working with the Exec com? Somebody who's sole responsibility is to promote sailing in the locality/local community?






Edited by Sussex Lad - 24 May 22 at 9:07am
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 9:00am
I think you have summed yourself up quite well tt, re your hobbies, re attention span .
You love thrill of new things , it’s why you never stayed long in any club or boat .
Me I am just boring , I like doing the came things, in the same place with the same people ( ie my friends ) .
It’s like repeatedly banging your head on a brick wall, eventually you enjoy it because you have done it for so long  LOL. 
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DiscoBall View Drop Down
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Posts: 305 		Post Options Post Options   Quote DiscoBall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Sussex Lad


As many of you know it can be quite galling to regularly be told what your doing wrong by someone who clearly thinks you need to improve.

Coaching needs to be there as does friendly advice but these things need to be solicited otherwise they do more harm than good imo, particularly with adult novices.


Conversely there are I think quite a lot of people who would like advice/assistance but don't want to feel like they are hassling the faster guys.

Most important is that there's good communication and friendliness between all levels of the fleet. If those further back feel ignored (or even that they are somehow a nuisance) they'll vote with their feet. Always important to make an effort to help and talk to newcomers / back markers (not necessarily giving advice), as they are often having the longest and most tiring days.  Ouch Suspect it is a big differentiator between successful and unsuccessful classes and clubs.
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 9:54am
Apart from two races at last years endeavour, I don't think I have finished in the back half of a class fleet race since sailing 49ers in 2006. 

And yet, despite beating the boat that came 2nd at the 800 nationals last year, and sailing what I felt was almost a faultless race, this below happened... and it's not the only time, I quite often get completely thumped in club races. 

Two days later we took the lead in the Monday pursuit with 20 odd minutes to go. The boat that finished behind us about 10 minutes behind at the finish (and we still go beat by almost a leg by a moth!!). 

I still do the races because it's fun, a bit of a shared experience with everyone who battles the course and conditions. I pay attention to other boats in my class in terms of judging my performance. And if there are no other boat in my class it's still a fun day on the water. 

For people who are racing at a high level, then I can see why they would avoid handicap racing. If I was struggling to get time in a boat ahead of an event I wanted to do well in, I would much rather practice on my own than take part in a handicap race. 
 
Handicap racing is really good for people who don't really care about 'getting better', they largely know where they sit, but the vagaries of handicap racing mixes things us enough but without shining a light too bright on anyone's shortcomings. It also lets them keep interest in the sport by racing different boats.

But (and bringing it back to topic) I believe it can be detrimental to people new to the sport. Seeing your progress through a fleet over the first year or two of racing is great to 'hook' people in to the sport. Handicap racing muddies the waters in a sport where performance and results can be hard to correlate anyway. It also makes it harder to simply copy where other boats go and how they sail. 

When I started (before having any training / coaching) I used to just copy the other topper sailors at my club. Sit where they sat, heeled the boat how they heeled. Followed their course. And I measured my success by how long in to a race I could see them well enough to copy.. and then as I got better by how many minute behind I was, then how many seconds. 

So, has the lack of class racing made it harder for new people to the sport to improve and understand racing?  Has this made it harder for clubs to survive? 




Edited by Mozzy - 24 May 22 at 9:55am
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Sussex Lad View Drop Down
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Posts: 359 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 22 at 10:07am
Originally posted by DiscoBall

Originally posted by Sussex Lad


As many of you know it can be quite galling to regularly be told what your doing wrong by someone who clearly thinks you need to improve.

Coaching needs to be there as does friendly advice but these things need to be solicited otherwise they do more harm than good imo, particularly with adult novices.


Conversely there are I think quite a lot of people who would like advice/assistance but don't want to feel like they are hassling the faster guys.

Most important is that there's good communication and friendliness between all levels of the fleet. If those further back feel ignored (or even that they are somehow a nuisance) they'll vote with their feet. Always important to make an effort to help and talk to newcomers / back markers (not necessarily giving advice), as they are often having the longest and most tiring days.  Ouch Suspect it is a big differentiator between successful and unsuccessful classes and clubs.






Absolutely. It's a fine line to tread.

Perhaps it would be better to foster the asking rather than focus on the needed improvement. 

As David said inclusivity is a good way to do this. It tends to happen organically in the right environment. This why the social side of a club is so important. Maybe newbies don't want to hassle the top guys but most folk are happy to ask friends.

Edited by Sussex Lad - 24 May 22 at 10:08am
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