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I know you all like a rules tangle..
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The Q View Drop Down
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Posts: 79 		Post Options Post Options   Quote The Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:17am
We have calls for tacking off the bank every week and the above situation often occurs. 

Because the outer boat didn't reply with "You Tack" and sailed on regardless, The outer boat is at fault and due a penalty . He could chose / have chosen to protest a needless call for water, but that wouldn't stop his being given a penalty.
Responding "YOU TACK" or tacking themselves is a MUST DO. 

Unfortunately over the years I have seen many "Tactical" calls for water, with the inner boat likely to deliberately to not tack at their best and tap the outer with their bow, if given a " You Tack" response.
Only all round video cameras can prevent this..

The worst situation I've ever seen, both sides of the fleet were calling for water off the river banks, and the middle of the fleet was calling for water round the buoy.. Me I,  was behind...  as the majority of the fleet sailed on, unable to turn, me and a couple of others, swept round the buoy leaving them to sort it out..

I'm glad I wasn't on the Protest committee that  day...
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Posts: 1283 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:22am
The “room to tack” call can be a ploy to maintain tactical advantage by forcing the windward boat to tack, so compelling the windward boat to tack following the call would ruin the game.  

Two variants, are that the leeward boat calls, windward boat tacks, but leeward boat caries on a bit further before tacking.

The other, that the leeward boat calls when it had room to tack and tack back, but panics the windward boat to tack.  

Generally the windward boat is in a better position to judge the “you tack” call than the leeward helm, who would have to look over his/her shoulder 
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Posts: 178 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:32am
The windward / outer boat has to respond (either by tacking or hailing 'you tack') as already covered. 

Of course on port tack it's less of an issue, but if the boat calling for room to tack ends up on port, then they are keep clear boat. 

Sometimes the inside boat calls for room to tack, when they really have space to tack and duck. Or when the outside boat is far enough away that they have space to tack, then tack back again on to starboard. But in both instances it's not uncommon for the inside boat to think the hail 'room to tack' gives then rights to sail away from the bank on port as far as they would like. 


Edited by Mozzy - 21 Mar 22 at 8:33am
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Posts: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bandin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 8:54am
To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'.

The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient.  
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 9:32am
Originally posted by Bandin

To clarify.. the windward boat did call 'You Tack'.

The issue is that the leeward boat is adamant that he should have not been forced to duck behind the windward boat and that the windward boat should have tacked. The windward boat disagrees and believes the fact the leeward boat had space to tack and duck behind was sufficient.  


I believe the onus would be on the windward boat to prove they gave enough room for the leeward boat to tack and duck them, remembering that the definition of room is not the minimum space required to manoeuvre, but the space required to do so in a 'seamanlike manner'.
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Jon Meadowcroft View Drop Down
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Posts: 64 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Meadowcroft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 9:46am
No onus on anyone to do anything as far as I can see in RRS.


Facts found:

Both boats hailed correctly

Leeward boat tacked

No collision


So the base assumption has to be that there was indeed room for leeward boat to tack and avoid the obstruction.



Edited by Jon Meadowcroft - 21 Mar 22 at 9:47am
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3199 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:02am
I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)
Robert
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Posts: 359 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:31am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)

You might find an hour or two on the Green at Cowes Week educational.
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Posts: 460 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:41am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat,

I can only think you dont sail on a river or on a a confined puddle.  Big smile

I learned to sail on a river and now sail on a tiny lake . This situation has  happened many times in every club race I have ever taken part in. It’s part and parcel of sailing on confined waters with loads of marks on the course , you have to use every cm of water  Smile
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Posts: 11 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bandin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 10:45am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would be disappointed in myself if I found myself to be either leeward or windward boat, if I was windward boat I would have been looking out for other boats and would have already moved over. The fact both boats knew the water, shows to me that leeward boat was being tactical. (How did the two boats get to where they were, was windward boat overtaking?)

I was ahead looking back but this was pretty much the situation.. wind was horrid yesterday, swinging 90deg constantly. 

There was no real protest other than a little grumbling on the part of the leeward boat but he (and others post race) were adamant windward was obliged to tack once called, whilst I and a couple who saw from behind disagreed and concluded leeward boat had plenty of space to tack and once tacked it was port/starboard so no issue. Leeward was annoyed he had to duck windward boat. 


Edited by Bandin - 21 Mar 22 at 10:49am
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