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H2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:45pm
Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:51pm
Originally posted by H2

Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?


Well in a way I quite envy you in that you've found a great boat you like and can do all that, the joys of being clinically obese I guess.

But meanwhile what is there for us normal shaped people?
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423zero View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 6:58pm
Griff, tell me a better boat than a Enterprise? Light, easy to use, plenty of them, really OLD design, does it need to be got rid of?
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john80 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote john80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 7:52pm
If you look at the classes that are doing well you are looking in the conventional, slow comparatively and manoeuvre able. This give you the chan e of attracting the largest group of sailors. People with limited skill and agility can sail them and serious sailors will sail anything that gives them there competitive fix. The only outlier is the musto skiff that has high performance, difficulty paired with it being a singlehanded and pretty low cost to own. Foiling is a minority endeavour as the racing is not that great and it alienates those essential mass sailors through difficulty, cost and low reliability.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by 423zero

really OLD design, does it need to be got rid of?


Well lets make a critique of a typical 50s design without naming classes.

Hull shape - unsteady at speed, not very manageable gybing. Favours lighter crews than 21stC average population.

Interior Layout - even though somewhat updated in recent construction is outdated and expensive, and having originally being designed with old school family sailing and construction in wood in mind has poor ergonomics.

Rig - old school rig has poor gust response making the boat unnecessarily difficult to sail in gusty conditions. Small roach and long boom make the boat more challenging to gybe than it might be. Sheeting angles not ideal, sheeting positions forced by jib shape (itself not positioned as designed) not ergonomic.
Batten layout tends to cause end batten poke and sails lose performance faster than necessary.

Foils. Unsophisticated shapes geared around plywood or sheet metal less effective than they could be, also increasing handling difficulty.

Hull construction in general. Many detail features left over from original design in wood, unnecessarily complex and expensive to build. Heavier than would be needed if layout were optimised for modern construction.

Probably no single old school class has all of these issues, but most of them have most. Now you might say that no current class fixes all those issues, and I fear you'd be right, but it doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

The trouble is there are other problems too. If you solve everything on that list, and especially the weight carrying, which means length, you end up with a boat that is a lot faster than its 50s equivalent, and may well be fast enough to make the boat unappealing to a sizeable chunk of its potential market. But if you deliberately slug the hull shape to bring the speed down, it loses the crisp feel of a throughbred and starts to feel like an unappealing barge.

Its not easy!


Edited by JimC - 23 Nov 21 at 8:10pm
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 8:15pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2

Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?


Well in a way I quite envy you in that you've found a great boat you like and can do all that, the joys of being clinically obese I guess.

But meanwhile what is there for us mini people?

 

The thing is they are plenty of boats that fit your small but perfectly formed body shape. 
But singlehanded wise most of them are  slow boats streaker/Europe etc that you have no interest in and thats without revisiting the  aero/zero that you have strong views about. Even you cannot rewrite physics, re size of person to size of  boat .

But I do understand why you donít want want to go the slow boat route . But as Jim c has said there are no perfect boats , so compromises are always part of boat choices .  Smile





Edited by Grumpycat - 23 Nov 21 at 11:45pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Grumpycat



Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by H2

Not sure if I am alone Graeme but I enjoy buying into a class, learning how to make the boat go well, make a bunch of mates, travel to events, have a laugh, be known and have some fun with people I get to like. Not really interested in moving every couple years, but maybe thats a "me" thing?


Well in a way I quite envy you in that you've found a great boat you like and can do all that, the joys of being clinically obese I guess.

But meanwhile what is there for us perfect people?

The thing is they are plenty of boats that fit your small but perfectly formed body shape.†
But singlehanded wise most of them are †slow boats streaker/Europe etc that you have no interest in and thats without revisiting the †aero/zero that you have strong views about. Even you cannot rewrite physics, re size of person to size of person .
But I do understand why you donít want want to go the slow boat route . But as Jim c has said there are no perfect boats , so compromises are always part of boat choices .† Smile



True, but there is so much of this these days.. I'm thinking of starting SLM, Short Lives Matter.
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Grumpycat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 10:13pm
SLM could gain traction.

But what ever you do for god sake donít call it GRF Lives Matter lol  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Nov 21 at 10:54pm
Originally posted by iGRF

I suppose it's my windsurfing background that needs a new board every couple of years to keep the interest focussed

.......

I just don't quite get why the rest of y'all don't want new stuff and if it does come along like the other things I like, bikes,m/cycles, boards etc, just rush out and buy..

If the manufacturers hadn't been so determined to sell us a new board even year maybe windsurfing would be a lot healthier than it is now. The outlawing of custom (read low production volume) boards in the transition from Div 1 to Raceboards, followed by the manufacturers dropping them and trying to sell us something totally unsuitable for 90% of venues and sailors (i.e. Formula but previously dedicated slalom boards or low volume wave boards did similar damage) killed off grass roots windsurfing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Nov 21 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Originally posted by iGRF

I suppose it's my windsurfing background that needs a new board every couple of years to keep the interest focussed

.......

I just don't quite get why the rest of y'all don't want new stuff and if it does come along like the other things I like, bikes,m/cycles, boards etc, just rush out and buy..

If the manufacturers hadn't been so determined to sell us a new board even year maybe windsurfing would be a lot healthier than it is now. The outlawing of custom (read low production volume) boards in the transition from Div 1 to Raceboards, followed by the manufacturers dropping them and trying to sell us something totally unsuitable for 90% of venues and sailors (i.e. Formula but previously dedicated slalom boards or low volume wave boards did similar damage) killed off grass roots windsurfing. 

I think the sport developed up its own a**e, however the same could be said for quite a few dinghy classes, where previously a helm could pick up a newbie crew and be half competitive.  

Someone at our club has recently bought an Albacore as a boat where their wife/crew can be comfortable in the front end Ö she now says there is actually nowhere to sit Ö too many controls and ropes, but at least her knees are below her hips when sailing.
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