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Reforming the Portsmouth Yardstick System

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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 21 at 9:25am
Originally posted by iGRF

So they do in fact come to clubs, we did all that, we then submitted results, we have two classes that win, either the Contender or the Laser and what does the 'system' recommend with it's 'confidence' after five more painful years? Slower numbers for both classes, it's f**ked, it doesn't do what it says on the tin.

Great Lakes is an admirable attempt and does at least offer us a bit more enthusiasm, the only way I can race the Farr is thanks to them, but they're a particular type of water, smooth with big corners fast classes can stretch their legs so slow classes have to have slower numbers to 'ketchup'

What's needed is a system that doesn't just respond to big numbers submitted by small clubs on ponds and great lakes but brings coastal clubs into play, we need a group, but we need to know who and what they are and they need to be accountable. A Handicap Racing Class of GB could include reps from inland coastal and great lakes, but be a bit more corinthian.

Hell they wouldn't need to even drive to meet these days of Zoom.

I think I have been to most of the Great Lakes races for the last few years and I do not recall ever seeing you come along to race? Please do correct me if I am wrong. My point is - all this moaning and yet when there is a system that is better than the RYA one you dislike....have you actually supported it by showing up and racing?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 21 at 9:43am
Having to travel hundreds of miles to sail in freezing winter conditions on a concrete bowl, just to use the handicap system you think you might prefer? Not really the best way to increase participation!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 21 at 9:45am
Surely Great Lakes is simply (or not simply, as loads of effort is put into it) a manifestation of PY being used in the way the PYAG suggest it is, with enough returns to make valid decisions?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mongrel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 21 at 12:27pm
Originally posted by robin34024

Originally posted by mongrel


Originally posted by robin34024


Originally posted by mongrel


Originally posted by davidyacht

Problem with formula based PY is it would not overcome the perceived difference in performance in different generations of one designs ... new Solo is built to the same rules, weight, measurements as a 20 year old Solo, but people keep saying that the latest Solos are noticeably faster than the old ones ... ho hum 

The right formula could allow for that, factor in year built, material type, construction type into the formula?

Even this isn't infallible. Take an Enterprise for example - a 1980's Lufkin/Lloyd/Ovington/possibly other Ent is likely to be fast, even at national level. Heck, even some older boats by Avacraft/Bacon/Smith and Davies/possibly others are likely to be fast. But, take an early Holt FRP Ent that's been ragged, and it's likely to be slower. Playing devils advocate a bit here, but some things can't just be reduced to formula. 
This isn't unique to Ents - an early Woof Albacore that hasn't been abused is most likely to be faster than a Fosrite glass boat. A Cory GRP Streaker is liklely to be slower than a Gillard wood of the same vintage. Take the Wooden Solo that GRF mentioned in another thread. I'm sure there are more examples - there are always outliers, and development isn't always linear.
And don't get me started on how this would work for some development classes...  LOL

So that’s your reason why things should stay the way they are?


No, it's my reason for not wanting to handicap boats on a generalisation of age/material.
Well its not a great reason in my opinion.
Old boats getting the odd good result, is generally down to a good sailor and a specific set of conditions, i.e. light winds, or extremely strong winds.  Each class probably has the odd one or two old boats capable of a good result on their day, it isn’t many.  No one who wants to get into a class to have a good nationals/worlds thinks, “what we need is a 25 year old avacraft to do really well”!
I’ve sailed development classes too, its amazing how you can have a range of different designs and shapes but find there’s not much difference in speed at the front end of the fleets.
I think a good formula system could work, and average wind and sea state could be factored into the formula too.  It would be nice to go racing and not know who’s going to win until the formula spits the result out.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old bloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 21 at 4:33pm
The trouble with age allowances is identifying those factors which are actually age related and not fixable. A lot of old boats are sheds. Why should I give time to old sails, crap foils and a pebble dash paint finish. A lot of old boat sailors are second division, keen people tend to have good boats. Other things can be strictly down to age, frp solos (although most are moulded from old designs I believe), wide bow fireballs etc.
The Merlin Rockets have been quite active in running age related handicaps, but now the early Canterbury Tales are nearly old enough to qualify and they are rather stuck on where to go next.
I think all in all,I am glad I am not going to be the man in charge
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 21 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Old bloke

The trouble with age allowances is identifying those factors which are actually age related and not fixable. A lot of old boats are sheds. Why should I give time to old sails, crap foils and a pebble dash paint finish. A lot of old boat sailors are second division, keen people tend to have good boats. Other things can be strictly down to age, frp solos (although most are moulded from old designs I believe), wide bow fireballs etc.
The Merlin Rockets have been quite active in running age related handicaps, but now the early Canterbury Tales are nearly old enough to qualify and they are rather stuck on where to go next.
I think all in all,I am glad I am not going to be the man in charge

It can be done on a class by class basis (the PYC aren't going to do it so by the CAs will have to). Merlins have a fairly simple answer, freeze the age at a specific year instead of a certain age, anything pre Canterbury Tales (with special dispensation for any old design boats built after the first 'Tales) get an allowance (Solo's likewise, but pre the first FRP boat). In the case of the Merlin make the allowance for old boats with a modern carbon rig and have an extra allowance for an old tin rig. That's it, one number, two allowances* (let the CVDRA take care of the real oldies). The Merlin a have a pretty comprehensive database of boats so it should be easy enough to keep track.

* Be conservative with the allowances, as Old Bloke says, old boats are usually sailed by less accomplished sailors and you still want the best crew to win, you just want to compensate for the age factor of the boat not the sailors lesser skill level. If you overdo it some highly talented pot hunter is going to buy an old boat and clean up.
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