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Detuning a Penultimate International 14?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Detuning a Penultimate International 14?
    Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 10:47am

[Multiple edits desperately trying and failing to fix the formating...]

Hi all,

 I would like to get your feedback on a somewhat weird idea:

We are looking for a dinghy for sailing on a little local gravel pit with the usual “all-over-the-place” wind.

 Requirements

- Selfdraining, center/daggerboard close to the water when capsized, low tendency to turtle for capsizing fun with the kids

- Sufficient buoyancy to support 180 kg crew without excessively dragging transom in light airs when sailing with friends

- Single trapeze to entertain kid (when sailing with one adult, not the whole family at the same time)

- Cheap “beach toy”, we got another dinghy for “serious” (whatever that means LOL) sailing

- Sail area big enough to keep moving in light airs

-  Sail area small enough to not require trapezing 

- Overall sailing weight light enough to launch/retrieve with one adult only

 The cheap “local” dinghies (e.g. “Korsar”, “Pirat”, “Yxilon” in Germany mostly lack the doublefloor and/or are too heavy. “British” "family" dinghies like RS Vision are rare and priced accordingly  Ouch

However due to the strong international 14 class association there are quite a few outdated international 14s around and now a 1987 Ovington Benedict 4 is offered for little money.

It would already bring a (relatively) low weight, double floor, absence of side tanks and trapezes with it.

Would it make any sense to cut down the (aluminum) Rigg by  3 foot (or 4 foot if someone changed it to a “big rig”) and look for some smaller/not fully-battened/second hand sails of e.g. an 470 to make it somewhat more “manageable”? (Including some flotation in the mast top when sailing with a kid, the gravel pit is way to small to make the risk of the capsized boat drifting away too quickly an issue...)

Int14s are generally supposed to support more crew weight than say an RS500 or a 29er, does anyone remember if this specific design did?

Thank you!

PS: I do have a soft spot for international 14s but not enough to think an arbitrary Penultimate with clapped out sails is worth saving/maintaining it as “int14” Smile



Edited by skslr - 18 Mar 21 at 10:56am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 11:04am
A mate put a National 12 rig on a vintage International 14 and it worked out as a very pleasant family sailing boat, and not nearly as dull in light airs as one might have thought. The more modern design is going to be a bit less light airs friendly than his 60s boat, but those penultimate hull shapes were arguably better in light airs than serious breeze.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 11:27am
I think you may be asking the impossible. ISO or L4k could be an option but they're never going to be family boats and anything roomy enough for there or four is going to be too big for one and a child.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I think you may be asking the impossible. ISO or L4k could be an option but they're never going to be family boats and anything roomy enough for there or four is going to be too big for one and a child.

It would be only intended for two persons at a time, not the whole familiy at once.

Not sure if the L4k with its racks and hull shape is any better for a gravel pit than a Penultimate.

ISO would be an option if there is a cheap one available, looks pretty similar anyway :-)
The threshold for removing the wings is 135 kg, does anybody know how far the weight range extends beyond that?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 12:45pm
Nothing wrong with getting out on the water in anything, but;-

Benedict IV was probably the easiest 14 of its generation to sail and had good ergonomics, but was demanding even of some of the best sailors of that time.  Also will be a handful to get upright if you capsize.  Probably not great to tack compared with sit out boats ... I remember doing a handicap regatta week in an estuary in a Benedict and still cross tacking with a Lark after an hour of racing!

If you put a smaller rig on, you really need to try and keep longitudinal the centre of effort in the same place or the boat will be very unbalanced.

If you sail on a gravel pit, then the dagger board might not be too forgiving when you run aground.

There are other boats that would fit your brief better, but they will also cost you more.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 1:51pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Nothing wrong with getting out on the water in anything, but;-

Benedict IV was probably the easiest 14 of its generation to sail and had good ergonomics, but was demanding even of some of the best sailors of that time.  Also will be a handful to get upright if you capsize.  Probably not great to tack compared with sit out boats ... I remember doing a handicap regatta week in an estuary in a Benedict and still cross tacking with a Lark after an hour of racing!

If you put a smaller rig on, you really need to try and keep longitudinal the centre of effort in the same place or the boat will be very unbalanced.

If you sail on a gravel pit, then the dagger board might not be too forgiving when you run aground.

There are other boats that would fit your brief better, but they will also cost you more.

Thank you!
 

Righting: Requiring both crew  on the Daggerboard was fairly typical back then - I hope it would get easier with a shorter mast and smaller sails!

Tacking: That's a trade-off we will need to accept then. The (very low key) club races are dominated by ILCAs anyway  Smile
 
Fore/aft balance: Understood. Not sure if some of the 14s back then could move the daggerboard some inches back and fore ashore by placing some kind of "chocks" in the daggerboard slot. If yes this could help to balance the boat again.

Running aground: The gravel pit is up to 15 m deep  -  that's the one thing I do not worry about :-)


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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 2:26pm
Fore and aft balance is IMHO greatly exaggerated. Look at the number of one design classes with sails that barely fit the boat since rake has been increased so much since the designer drew it. On a modern dinghy side load is shared between rudder and daggerboard. Move the rig back and forward and the helm completely automatically increases or reduced the angle of incidence of the rudder by a fraction to compensate.

The N12 rig on a 14 mentioned above (which I set up for him) is perfectly satisfactory - indeed to my astonishment even the jib sheeting angle was good and it didn't even need a barber hauler added. I'd be mildly surprised if a 470 rig didn't do a good job. I think I'd try and source a complete rig rather than chop up the 14 spars though. A 29er rig might be the best option, but more trouble to find than a 470.


Edited by JimC - 18 Mar 21 at 2:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by JimC

Fore and aft balance is IMHO greatly exaggerated. Look at the number of one design classes with sails that barely fit the boat since rake has been increased so much since the designer drew it. On a modern dinghy side load is shared between rudder and daggerboard. Move the rig back and forward and the helm completely automatically increases or reduced the angle of incidence of the rudder by a fraction to compensate.

The N12 rig on a 14 mentioned above (which I set up for him) is perfectly satisfactory - indeed to my astonishment even the jib sheeting angle was good and it didn't even need a barber hauler added. I'd be mildly surprised if a 470 rig didn't do a good job. I think I'd try and source a complete rig rather than chop up the 14 spars though. A 29er rig might be the best option, but more trouble to find than a 470.

I have to admit, cutting the mast is somewhat tempting and would save the search, purchase cost and the transport of another mast  Smile

I have seen someone cutting down a similar broken int14 mast for a rigg similar to an 470 so it should be not that far off. Not sure if I would still trust the composite mast tip of a 29er Rigg that is being sold cheaply with UV impact and all that - if available at all.

Just saw a brand new Windesign 420 main and Jib package for 665 Euros. Maybe that would actually work better than clapped out 470 sails?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 5:04pm
Out of interest what is the number?  I had two
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Mar 21 at 5:39pm
Well the trouble is the whole business of rig performance comes into it. Bearing in mind the intended purpose a hard mouthed bitch of a rig with the gust response of a telegraph pole isn't going to cut the mustard. What you are going to need is gust response and a sail matched to the mast.

That's why I think a 29er rig would be the best bet: its the most responsive rig of about the right size that might be readily available to you. A good IC or Cherub rig might even be better, but finding a good one available on the second hand market anywhere near you will be next to impossible. From what I recall last time I looked at one 470 rigs tend to be setup for power rather than gust response, but I still reckon its going to be better than a Frankenrig.
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