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Detuning a Penultimate International 14?
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skslr View Drop Down
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Posts: 137 		Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 21 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

You probably need a shortlist of classes that are available within a couple of hours drive of you, if you were in the UK I'd say Buzz, L2000 (a little on the heavy side admittedly and would probably stretch the budget), ISO, Laser 2 and L3k are probably a bit on the small size for 180kg...

There used to be a dinghy database on the Noble website but it disappeared in the last revamp. I did save a copy as an Excel spreadsheet if it might be of help identifying suitable candidates.  https://www.dropbox.com/s/a4nk3jngwiye9ha/Dinghy%20Database.xls?dl=0

Does a Buzz carry weight better than an ISO? I always thought Buzz/Spice are more for lightweight teams and ISO/Boss for heavy teams, but maybe I am wrong here?

Thank you for providing the Excel! I got an error message for the dropbox link, I need to try again with a different PC.

Originally posted by Old bloke

Not double floored, but a 505 ticks all your other boxes

A 505 would be really nice for the sailing itself and I am pretty confident I could handle it with one of the childs most of the time. I would even consider it as "relatively stable". But SWMBO would not accept the single floor, the "look" and  weight would be right on the edge.

Originally posted by Rupert

Topper Boss with a cut down rig.

Now we start talking  Big smile

There is actually one for sale right now in Germany, but it looks like the asking price is based rather on the money recently spend dacron(!) sails than on age and the absence of any class racing in Germany.

Originally posted by Rupert

ISO probably makes more "sense", though, as much as any of this does!

Genuine sense would suggest a Sport 14 or similar, but not very exciting compared to a 14. Sense is overrated...

Exactly  Big smile

It would be way more sensible to sell the other dinghy and spend the money on a 2000, Vision, or even a Quest. My daughter actually wants me to buy a Quest....

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

True but the OP is not (unless I'm missing something) considering a Boss, L5k or a 14 with the standard rig  but something considerably de-tuned in comparison hence the suggestions for Buzz or L2/3k

"Considerably de-tuned" is exactly the idea. SWMBO and I would certainly try out the original configuration  first just for giggles, but the goal is to sail with one of the kids or a friend.

(And not only the friends who are used to helm from the wire ...) 


 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6625 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 21 at 12:48pm
I'm struggling to think of a better option to the 14 as a donor hull. You really want bigger than a 14 for various reasons, but probably not brutally heavy like Boss/5 tonner. A 49er hull with wings removed might work.
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Posts: 3370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 21 at 1:41pm
Yes, Buzz (and Spice) is good up to 170kg apparently, the ISO will carry more weight. But there is no single boat that will fit your requirements without compromise.

To summerise :-

100 -180 kg crew weight range, 
Trapeze and double bottom but doesn't need weight forward of shrouds in the light, 
Light weight on shore, 
Cheap... 

IMO the first two requirements are impossible to fully reconcile, a boat that works well with 100kg on board is not going to work well with 180 kg on board and a double bottom trapeze boat  is almost certainly going to be vaguely skiffy and will need weigh well forward to stop it dragging the transom in the light. The L2k is one of very few boats that might do it but falls down on weight ashore and price.

That said, compromise doesn't have to be such a bad thing, I have had loads of fun sailing the Spice, often at the very top end of the weight range and also singlehanded in sub 8 kn, it's a huge compromise but has still be a joy over the last 12 years.


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 23 Mar 21 at 1:42pm
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Posts: 137 		Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 21 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

I'm struggling to think of a better option to the 14 as a donor hull. You really want bigger than a 14 for various reasons, but probably not brutally heavy like Boss/5 tonner. A 49er hull with wings removed might work.

The internet claims the Boss hull weight only being 85 kg  - is that just marketing BS?

Compared to a 49er the Boss still looks more like a "Boat" with cockpit side walls and so on :-)

Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Yes, Buzz (and Spice) is good up to 170kg apparently, the ISO will carry more weight. But there is no single boat that will fit your requirements without compromise.

To summerise :-

100 -180 kg crew weight range, 
Trapeze and double bottom but doesn't need weight forward of shrouds in the light, 
Light weight on shore, 
Cheap... 

IMO the first two requirements are impossible to fully reconcile, a boat that works well with 100kg on board is not going to work well with 180 kg on board and a double bottom trapeze boat  is almost certainly going to be vaguely skiffy and will need weigh well forward to stop it dragging the transom in the light. The L2k is one of very few boats that might do it but falls down on weight ashore and price.

That said, compromise doesn't have to be such a bad thing, I have had loads of fun sailing the Spice, often at the very top end of the weight range and also singlehanded in sub 8 kn, it's a huge compromise but has still be a joy over the last 12 years.

The "100 kg" stemm from the min hull weight for penultimate int 14s. Sailing with my son would already mean 130 kg crew weight, unfortunately I am not far off the 100 kg on my own...
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Posts: 3370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 21 at 4:22pm
Yeah, 100kg was a guess on my part more to illustrate the point TBH (but single handing to two average+ sized adults covers it).

Apparently the Boss was not as much overweight as one might have expected looking at it but it wasn't;t a 49er style lightweight and Topper did have a rep for quoting hull weights totally stripped bare. FWIW my Spice claims 85kg but a well connected insider told me that that was, in reality, the weight of a bare hull with no fittings, space frames or anything else and people don't refer to the L5k as the 5 tonner without reason either.

Bear in mind that while the L2k is probably the ideal boat for your circumstances it does weigh 140kg hull with fittings so probably nearer 165-170 ready to sail.

I can email the .xls if you like (pm you email address)?


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 23 Mar 21 at 4:24pm
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Posts: 137 		Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar 21 at 9:36pm
I was now able to download the .xls. Thank you!
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Posts: 3370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 21 at 12:03pm
Thumbs Up Bear in mind the PNs are not up to date...
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Posts: 137 		Post Options Post Options   Quote skslr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 21 at 4:24pm

Apparently it has been done before, the internet says that int14 with 470 riggs were built in the U.S. as “one designs”...

I guess for handicapping our club's race officer would simply take the current yardstick value for international 14s in Germany instead of getting tangled up in a discussion how much the "detuning" should increase the number...

At least we got a separate value for int14s before 1995, which is the same value as an FD.
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Posts: 6625 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Mar 21 at 7:04pm
There was an OD14 built in the US in late single string days as I recall (based on a Cross design 14), but I'm pretty confident it didn't have a 470 rig.



Edited by JimC - 24 Mar 21 at 9:51pm
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar 21 at 8:54am
The Jet 14 from much earlier might be the boat you are thinking of.
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