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Hitting a Mark...

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Nacnud_smada View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hitting a Mark...
    Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 7:52am
Morning, 
Just wandered if you could help. (again) 
 
We had a little chat at the club yesterday after a  sailor hit a mark. and wandering if you can correct or point out anything we missed. 

it was a finish mark and the boat had to pass it to starboard to cross the line. in doing so hit the mark, broke rule 31.

Sailor then carried on sailing around the mark to complete their 360, so in affect did a turn around the buoy, while doing this he called for water on another boat... which rules 44.2 comes into affect, and they cannot do this?

So unless i am barking up the wrong tree, this is cut and dry?

Now i have in the back of my head that if you hit a Buoy you have to unwind yourself before you start your penalty turns and affectively re round.. but i cannot find this on the book... so is this not the case? 
Thank you in advance
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 9:59am
This is an interesting little problem.

A boat may take her one turn penalty around the mark.

Case 108
When taking a penalty after touching a mark, a boat need not complete a full 360° turn, and she may take her penalty while simultaneously rounding the mark. Her turn to round the mark will serve as her penalty if it includes a tack and a gybe, if it is carried out promptly after she is no longer touching the mark and is well clear of other boats, and when no question of advantage arises.

Original Boat (A) starts taking a penalty when she begins 'making the required number of turns' (rule 44.2),

From that time until she completes her penalty she shall keep clear of other boats not taking penalties (rule 22.2).

Whether or not she is entitled to mark-room is largely irrelevant, because mark-room only entitles her to exoneration for Section A rules and rules 15 and 16 (rule 21).

Rule 22.2 is a rule of Part D, so no exoneration for breaking rule 22.2 under rule 21

If the other boat (B) was hunting A and either not giving mark-room or not sailing her proper course, then A might get exoneration under rule 64.1(a)  or rule 24.2.


Edited by Brass - 26 Oct 20 at 10:04pm
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:12am
I don't think you have to 'unwind' yourself before turns. WRT calling water, she can't, rule 44.2 says "after getting well clear of other boats as soon after the incident as possible" so she can't sail around the mark as that is not getting away from other boats asap. After completing her 360 turn she "she shall sail completely to the course side of the line before finishing."
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:37am
Careful it's not a '360 degree' penalty. It's a One Turn Penalty including one tack and one gybe (rule 44.2). That can be a good deal less than 360 degrees.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Nacnud_smada Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:42am
Cheers chaps
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 10:50am
Unwind? Isn't that when you go around a mark the wrong way?

To re-finish you just need to go back to course side and sail through the line again, it doesn't matter how you get there, and if you get their via a penalty turn then that's just an efficient way of completing your penalty and re-finishing.  But you need to have completed your penalty turn before re-finishing. 

A tack then gybe that takes you round and end and back through the line is fine. They could have born off in to a gybe, then tacked, then gone trough the line and not go themselves involved needing water from other boats finishing. But it all depends on the situation and having to keep clear of boats not doing a penalty turn. 

"22.2 A boat taking a penalty shall keep clear of one that is not"

So I'd say it's rule 22.2 they broke if they hadn't complete the last tack or gybe. But if they had, then I guess they can call for mark room?


Edited by Mozzy - 26 Oct 20 at 10:53am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 12:43pm
I expect I am overthinking myself into a sea lawyers logic hole, but can a boat that is required to keep clear also call for mark room? The boat taking the penalty must initially sail well clear of other boats. That's not a definition, so it goes to the dictionary. She must then keep clear of other boats. Fair enough. But a windward boat entitled to mark room is also required to keep clear. So if I'm not overthinking then a boat taking a penalty, and most especially one that has completed the penalty is still entitled to mark room subject to various other requirements in RRS18.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct 20 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by JimC

I expect I am overthinking myself into a sea lawyers logic hole, but can a boat that is required to keep clear also call for mark room?

Anyone can 'call' for anything they damn well please.

But a give-way boat can certainly be entitled to mark-room, for example, port gybe, or windward boat inside at a leeward mark.

As discussed above, problem with a boat required to give way under rule 22.2 having mark-room is that she doesn't get exoneration for failing to keep clear under rule 21.

If the other boat was hunting her and either not giving mark-room or not sailing her proper course, then she might get exoneration under rule 64.1(a) or rule 24.2, but that would be a long shot.

Originally posted by JimC

The boat taking the penalty must initially sail well clear of other boats. That's not a definition, so it goes to the dictionary. She must then keep clear of other boats. Fair enough.

I don't think that a boat taking a penalty that fails to keep clear of another boat necessarily implies that she failed to sail well clear in the first place, thus making the penalty non-compliant with rule 44.2 so it doesn't count: maybe so maybe no, but she is going to have to do another penalty in respect of the latest failure to keep clear, or face disqualification.

Originally posted by JimC

But a windward boat entitled to mark room is also required to keep clear. So if I'm not overthinking then a boat taking a penalty, and most especially one that has completed the penalty is still entitled to mark room subject to various other requirements in RRS18.


True, but see above about no exoneration if it's rule 22.2.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 20 at 1:10pm



This scenario demonstrates the difference between a 360 degree penalty and  One Turn Penalty, and presents some flip-flops in the analysis.

Assumption
@1 Y reaches the zone clear ahead of other boats.
Y is entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2(b))


Hits mark 

@2 Y touches the mark, and her bow also crosses the finishing line
Y breaks rule 31.
Y finishes in accordance with the definition.
At this point, Y has been given all the mark-room she is entitled to, and she is no longer entitled to mark-room (rule 18.2(d)).


Starts taking penalty 

@3 Y is no longer touching the mark, and has begun making her turn to take her penalty for touching the mark.
Y begins to be required to keep clear of other boats in accordance with rule 22.2.

Suppose there had been another boat, that became overlapped with Y between @1 and @3 and was close to Y @3, there might be an issue whether Y complied with her rule 44.2 obligation to get well clear of other boats before beginning her penalty. If a protest committee concluded in hearing a valid protest that she had not complied with that obligation, then she would not have taken her penalty for breaking rule 31 in accordance with rule 44.2 and subject to being validly protested for breaking rule 31, she would be penalised for that breach.
@4 Y’s stern clears the finishing line: she is taking a penalty under rule 44.2 and has crossed the finishing line, so she ‘un-finished’ in accordance with Definition : Finish (a), and is still racing.
@4 Y continues taking her penalty.
@4 Y gybes onto starboard tack
  • With respect to any boat approaching the finishing line on port tack, Y will be on opposite tacks with her proper course at the mark to tack, thus rule 18 will not apply.
  • With respect to a boat approaching the finishing line on starboard tack, Y would be entitled to mark-room from any boat becoming overlapped outside her (rule 18.2(a)), but would remain required to keep clear of such a boat in accordance with rule 22.2, and would not be exonerated for any breach of rule 22.2 by rule 21. Because Y is manoeuvring below and outside the finishing mark, it is highly unlikely that any other boat on the finishing line side of the finishing mark is going to get overlapped outside her.
@5 to @6 Y continues taking her penalty
@7 Y is head to wind, still taking her penalty
@8 Y is past head to wind.
Y has tacked and has completed her penalty, no longer required to keep clear under rule 22.2.
Y becomes required to keep clear of other boats not tacking under rule 13.
Y becomes entitled to mark-room from any boat overlapped outside her, that is now, almost any boat approaching the finishing mark from the course side, which will exonerate her if she breaks rule 13 (rule 21).
@9 to @10 Y continues bearing away to finish.
@11 Y finishes
@12 Y’s stern clears the finishing line and Y is no longer racing.



Edited by Brass - 27 Oct 20 at 1:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Oct 20 at 11:50am
I follow the drift of this debate, but suggest that whilst the penalty boat is taking its penalty turn (gybe & tack) it is effectively out of the game and for want of a better discription 'invisible' the point at which it completes the penalty it 'reappears'. Only at this point can it claim to have established an inside overlap at the mark but could only be entitled to room from other boats that are still >3 lengths from the mark. Would that be the case?
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