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Simple Rule Question

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 10:23am
Originally posted by Rupert

Anticipation is waiting with baited breath, as it were. Certainly if in a line of boats heading off a start line towards a shore I'll be anticipating a hail. But in reality, shouldn't we be anticipating stuff in sailing generally? OK, we can't be in a heightened state of awareness for every crash tack, but surely the rules aren't assuming total obliviousness?

Here's the search for 'anticipate' on the Cases and Appeals


Relevant Cases are
Rule 19.2(a), Room to Pass an Obstruction: Giving Room at an Obstruction
Rule 20, Room to Tack at an Obstruction
Rule 64.1(a), Decisions: Penalties and Exoneration
A leeward port-tack boat, hailing for room to tack when faced with an oncoming starboard-tack boat, an obstruction, is not required to anticipate that the windward boat will fail to comply with her obligation to tack promptly or otherwise provide room.

Rule 2, Fair Sailing
Rule 13, While Tacking
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 15, Acquiring Right of Way
A boat is not required to anticipate that another boat will break a rule. When a boat acquires right of way as a result of her own actions, the other boat is entitled to room to keep clear.

Rule 20, Room to Tack at an Obstruction
A boat is entitled to hail for room to tack at the time when she needs to begin the process described in rule 20 to avoid the obstruction safely. A boat that hails must give the hailed boat sufficient time to respond before tacking herself. The hail must clearly convey the hailing boat’s need to tack and be sufficiently loud to be heard in the prevailing conditions. If the hailed boat does not respond, the hailing boat can repeat her hail if time permits, or avoid the obstruction and protest.

Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 16.1, Changing Course
Rule 16.2, Changing Course
When a right-of-way boat changes course, the keep-clear boat is required to act only in response to what the right-of-way boat is doing at the time, not what the right-of-way boat might do subsequently.


Edited by Brass - 10 Jan 20 at 11:45pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 10:46am
Seems to me that anticipate is used to mean "act" in those cases, rather than "be aware". I can see why you were cautious about its use in the previous situation. I'm sure as hell going to "be aware" that a RoW boat might do, or not do something, even if I don't have to "act" on it till they do.

But maybe, as JimC might say, I'm mixing tactics (and self preservation) with rules, which causes distress and confusion. I might be paraphrasing, here!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 11:00am
I can't find where to put this, it is feedback on a forum issue, that of quotes not staying in the text area and straying across the adverts on the right makeing them unreadable. It does it on two different browsers so It's not a Safari issue?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 11:04am
> I'm mixing tactics (and self preservation) with rules,

You are I think. To require anticipation in the rules would make for a horrible soggy mess, because suddenly rule observation would depend on second guessing what other people are thinking. I think the current rules situation that one is only expected to act on what actually happens is 100% correct.

Consider RRS 15 and Sams's example. With RRS 15 and no anticipation required then leeward may not tack if in doing so, as per example, she makes it impossible for boats down the line to keep clear of each other. If a requirement that boats down the line were expected to anticipate that leeward will want to tack onto starboard were added to the rule, then the whole thing would get extremely messy "I can see a header ahead of of leeward: he's going to tack on it so I want water to tack now so I can keep clear if he tacks in my water". Its a minefield, to say the least!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote MerlinMags Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 4:08pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I can't find where to put this, it is feedback on a forum issue, that of quotes not staying in the text area and straying across the adverts on the right makeing them unreadable. It does it on two different browsers so It's not a Safari issue?


Thanks for warning us. I believe I have fixed the issue now. Hopefully things stay readable...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jan 20 at 5:07pm
If the ROW boats don’t anticipate I can assure you that there will be an almighty pile up!  

This is why I asked the question as to whether a loud hail from L should initiate W to tack, or whether W can wait for M to hail.  The wording of the rule refers to “hailed boat” in the singular, if it was intended for the hail to get all of the boats that were pinning him to tack, then it would say “hailed boats” ... in fact 20.3 clearly makes the case that there can be a sequence of hails.

I accept that Case 113 sets out to clarify this situation, however imo it is applying common sense rather than applying the rule as it is written.

The biggest assumption is in trusting that everyone is aware of and working to the same set of rules.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 20 at 3:13am
Originally posted by davidyacht

If the ROW boats don’t anticipate I can assure you that there will be an almighty pile up!  

In the boats piled up approaching the beach scenario, who are you saying is the ROW boat that needs to anticipate?  Not the windwardmost boat:  she's overlapped windward, same tack and the give-way boat.

Whatever of the dictionary meanings you ascribe to 'anticipate', according to the rules and the Cases I linked to above, a ROW boat is the one boat that is NOT required to anticipate anything.

This is why I asked the question as to whether a loud hail from L should initiate W to tack, or whether W can wait for M to hail.

Which is very clearly answered in Case 113 Answer 2

When a boat that is not adjacent to the hailing boat has heard the hail, and will have to respond before the hailing boat is able to tack, she is a ‘hailed boat’ in the context of rule 20.2 and she shall respond accordingly

The wording of the rule refers to “hailed boat” in the singular, if it was intended for the hail to get all of the boats that were pinning him to tack, then it would say “hailed boats” ... in fact 20.3 clearly makes the case that there can be a sequence of hails.

What rule 20.3 says is that a Middle boat who is not herself entitled to hail (maybe because she is not sailing close hauled, or fetching clear of the obstruction without any need to change course), after a hail from an inside boat, is entitled to hail and have a response in accordance with rule 20.2.

I accept that Case 113 sets out to clarify this situation, however imo it is applying common sense rather than applying the rule as it is written.

You may regard Case 113 as common sense.  Others may think common sense means that a hail always has to be passed on by each intervening boat.

Case 113 authoritatively resolves that conflict.

The biggest assumption is in trusting that everyone is aware of and working to the same set of rules.

I don't think that's any bigger an assumption in a rule 20 scenario than in any other situation.


Edited by Brass - 10 Jan 20 at 9:32am
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