New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Technical protest
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Technical protest

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>
Author
KazRob View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king
Avatar

Joined: 22 Oct 16
Location: Scotland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 167
Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 12:05pm
At heart is this any different from someone using a replica Laser sail in a club Laser fleet? Indeed there's probably more room to get a relative speed increase out of using a specially cut non-class legal Laser sail than chasing loop holes in development classes
OK 2139 & 2148
Back to Top
Brass View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 08
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 951
Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by fudheid

what about doing it as a rule 2 or rule 69, that could be done by contacting the MNA? if an international / national class? It's unethical to race with what you believe to be an 'out of class' boat. Isn't that what happened to Iker in the nacra's
What a dick move that would be.  If you can't prove that a boat broke a class rule how can you hope to prove that they broke rule 2?

In any case it won't work.

A boat or competitor shall not be penalised without a protest hearing (rule 63.1)

Nobody except a protest committee can hold a protest hearing (rule 63.1 second sentence).

A protest committee can only be appointed by an Organising Authority or a Race Committee (rule 91).

While an MNA may act under its disciplinary regulations, it has no power to act under rule 69 (rule 69.3).

If you think a boat broke a rule, and you are a 'boat', validly protest and get along to the protest hearing and argue your case.

If you find the protest procedure repugnant, then have the decency to keep your mouth shut.
Back to Top
davidyacht View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 969
Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 2:19pm
This highlights a whole raft of issues with handicap racing ... only those cognisant with a class will know what is class legal and what is not ... what is the difference between sailing a Laser with a knock off sail compared with a Merlin with a non woven sail?  Do either make a difference to the time to complete the course ... probably not ... are either class legal?
Happily living in the past
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6147
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 19 at 3:19pm
Its not really any different to class racing. If you enter a boat claiming it to be a member of class X then it must comply with all the class rules of Class X. If it doesn't that's cheating.
However there is not normally a requirement for boats to be a member of a recognised class in handicap races, so if you want to enter a boat that isn't a legal member of a class then you need to fully inform the RC so they can make a judgement about what handicap to allocate your mongrel. What they shouldn't do is refuse entry to mongrels.

Edited by JimC - 15 Nov 19 at 3:23pm
Back to Top
fudheid View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 11
Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 232
Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 2:53pm
I'm not protesting anyone, it's not handicap racing, I've no interest in lasers or training sails (and davidyacht Merlin's can have any material sail as long as it is single ply)
It's a development class.
I have the development on my boat, the measure says it's legal to me, the CA write to me saying I won't be allowed to compete in their open meetings with my boat in its current form. They are not protesting me, they are saying I won't be allowed to compete. Now who is making dick moves? And what is the non dick way of saying I'm legal? Have a protest at a sailing club in a normal club race, to set a precedent.
If the CA do this and rig the system to ensure it is out lawed (by having the addition on a 'friendly' boat) and then protesting it by another 'friendly' boat and finding a protest committee of approved CA members. Can that protest only be appealed by the two protest boats?.
If I'm not there to give the evidence I have regarding the rule? I just have to suck eggs?
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Online
Posts: 6147
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 3:17pm
76.1 The organizing authority or the race committee may reject or cancel
the entry of a boat or exclude a competitor, subject to rule 76.3,
provided it does so before the start of the first race and states the
reason for doing so. On request the boat shall promptly be given the
reason in writing. The boat may request redress if she considers that
the rejection or exclusion is improper.


I believe there are only a very limited number of reasons an exclusion might be considered improper. A race organiser, so far as I am aware, is quite entitled to hold an event for (say) Merlin class boats that don't have such and such a feature. If you think about it the de May series for vintage boats is precisely that.

A protest at a club race doesn't set a precedent.

If you haven't broken a rule you can't be disqualified for breaking a rule. However I see no reason why an entry can't be refused. It is, of course, a very strange way of going about things: if you want to ban a development change the damn rules, but it doesn't appear to be prohibited.
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2472
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 19 at 5:26pm
Interesting that the Merlin rules state a 'single ply' sail but laminate sails are allowed. Surely, by definition, a laminate has to have more than a single ply?
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
fudheid View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work
Avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 11
Location: 51.53 N 01.28 E
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 232
Post Options Post Options   Quote fudheid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 1:17pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Interesting that the Merlin rules state a 'single ply' sail but laminate sails are allowed. Surely, by definition, a laminate has to have more than a single ply?

Ply is defined in the ERS ... Sheet of sail material, laminate is exactly that .
Cheers you

only me from over the sea......
Back to Top
Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 07 Mar 12
Location: Manchester UK
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2472
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 5:48pm
Ah, ok. They specifically prohibit sleeved luffs though the 'single ply' wording seems to do the same thing.
Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
Back to Top
gbrspratt View Drop Down
Posting king
Posting king


Joined: 26 Sep 11
Location: Felixstowe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 169
Post Options Post Options   Quote gbrspratt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 19 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

Ah, ok. They specifically prohibit sleeved luffs though the 'single ply' wording seems to do the same thing.


No double luffs. But ply is still ply. No matter it's construction method. What it stops you from doing is putting tapes through the middle of the sail making an old school tape drive sail. Or twin plying high load areas.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 11>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy