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Abitthick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Abitthick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Black flag
    Posted: 14 Jun 19 at 9:14am
sorry for a probably really silly question...    under a black flag start if a boat is over the line (in the triangle inside 1 minute) does the race officer signal an individual “recall” in the same way as if starting with p??
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 19 at 9:55am
Individual recall (29.1) is turned off for black flag and U -flag (30.3 + 30.4). 

It's also worth noting that X flag is only for boats who are over at the start. So you could be penalised under 30.1 and 30.2 for being over in the 1 minute and given 20% or get protested for not going round the ends and no X flag would be flown. 

(I think for I flag the race committee or another competitor has to protest you)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Abitthick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 19 at 10:36am
Thank you! 

Sorry I’m making this all seem far more complicated than it actually is! 

I had missed the last sentence of 29.1 which turns this rule off completely for 30.3 or 30.4.
So as individual recall is turned off completely under black flag (or u) there is no signal for the competitors (x or sound)  that a boat was over at the start... just a sail number on the blackboard and a bfd in the results.?  

If I or Z are used then it is more complicated, but in terms of signals the x flag and sound signal if they are over at the start.  If they had been over within the last minute but returned there would be no signal but they would be penalised.  I guess this is comparable to under p when the x goes down when the boat hat correctly returned. 

I think Ive got it??

Thanks!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Fatboi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 19 at 10:44am
I and Z are rarely used now days.

WS have introduced the U flag, which is effectively a black flag, but if there is a general recall/AP you are back in the race. Seams pointless to me, but what they have decided... 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Abitthick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 19 at 10:59am
Yeah, I have never seen an I or z, but I have seen “U” used a few times.  I quite like the idea of it I think it gives the race officer a slight second chance if it all goes wrong without being the fault of the competitors.
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mozzy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jun 19 at 11:48am
In large fleets I think the starting rule options are pretty ineffective.

For me, whether it's P, Black, U, Z or I my start is exactly the same. I'll aim to start just behind the line. If I think other boats are over the line and I'll get smothered if the race is let go I will aim to start as far forward as possible, but not be seen. 

For the top half of the fleet if you go back after P flag it's likely to be your discard. So the effective result of being caught over the line is the same no matter which starting rule... i.e. you'll lose a discard. 

The only way starting rules effect me is it changes where I sail pre-start. I just will avoid the triangle of death! Having boats ducking back and forth over the line in the last minute can maybe encourage the fleet to be over, but I don't think it has that big of an affect to what actually happens at the gun.  Oh and if I think there is going to be a general recall with a black flag, I'll make sure I'm quick back. 

Part of me really likes black flag / U-flag starts in a big fleet. Many start sh*tting themselves and hang back and you have a huge line sag to start ahead of. Yet rationally, especially for the better boats, it shouldn't impact how hard they push the line. 

However, the other part of me thinks they're pretty ineffective. Black flags only really seem to significantly calm the fleet down after many recalls and many boats pulled out. It seems a little unfair as the committee can never get all the numbers of those over. And the better behaviour is just due to having less boats on the line and the shock of having boats sit out, rather than the scoring implications for those over being much altered. 

If there was non-discard scoring penalty for being over the line, then we might see less pushing of the line. 

i.e. you'd have 
P flag over at start = restart or OCS
Z flag over at start = restart or OCS + 5% added to series score
U flag over at start = restart or OCS +  10% added to series score
Black Flag over at start = DNE


Edited by mozzy - 14 Jun 19 at 11:52am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Abitthick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 19 at 1:44pm
Thanks for the replies last week. I was RO at the weekend and was having a bit of a mind blank before the event. As it turned out we managed all starts with P and no recalls at all.  Must have been a good line...
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