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Double points race tie brake

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:16pm
Mozzy,

The 200s were in error, which is being corrected. The results arenít up yet because they are being reworked in a publishable format.

If you have another look at the SIs youíll see that at 17.2.1 the score from the pursuit race will correspond to the position within that class only.

So as you say your score was 1. Which takes you to an equal number of firsts and thus to the next tie break which is dealt with in the normal way.

17.2.3 which you quote emphasises this: the pursuit race SCORE is doubled to create the total points score

Personally I think itís great that in the 9 classes racing was so tight that there were ties for first in 3 and also for third and fourth in one.

Of course for you in the 800s it makes no difference to the order: without scoring your pursuit race first as a 1 for tie break purposes then you would be second by virtue of having less firsts. Same in the 200s for 1&2 and 3&4.

Not sure about being more specific: the more words one adds the less clear/more risk of being wrong you become!

Edited by sargesail - 05 Nov 18 at 2:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:41pm
The results from the pursuit are extracted for each class... that's not an issue so I didn't quote it.

My question is what happens to the pursuit score when you double it for countback. Do you get two 1st, or one 2nd. Or does it stay as one first? That affects the countback.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 2:56pm
That wasnít my point in quoting it. As well as telling you that class results are extracted 17.2.1 also tells you that your score is your race position which (17.2.3) is then doubled to get the overall points total.

I see why you might be wanting it to count as 2 firsts! But itís only one race so it only counts once.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 3:33pm
Sargesail,

I hope the SI prescribe a high points scoring system, otherwise in low -points, the Passage Race, scoring double points is only worth half of the two Saturday races.

If using high points, the rule A8.1 tie break best to worst will be 20, 19, 18 17 ... . That should work.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 3:50pm
Not sure what you're getting at...
"17.2.1 The score from the pursuit race will correspond to the position within that class only."
That's not in dispute at all. It tells you that your position is from within your own class. 
17.2.3 then says that score is doubled... 

Are you're saying that the SIs make it clear that total scores are calculated after SI 17.2.1 and 17.2.3 have been affected, but count-back is only carried out after 17.2.1 has been done but not 17.2.3? 

Originally posted by sargesail


But itís only one race so it only counts once.
Says who? 17.2.3 says it a double score. Why should that mean one 2nd place rather than two 1st? If you look at a lot of the double score medal races it's written in the results as two 1sts. 

So, is a race win doubled = two race wins, or is it = second place, or does a race win in a double score revert back to a single 1 point score for count-back?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 4:59pm
I haven't see all the SIs, or the results, so its hard to give an opinion. But its beginning to sound as if the SIs were written so that in tie break terms all the races were equal, and the doubling of points only applied when totalling the points. If so it must have been fun to set up in the scoring system!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by JimC

I haven't see all the SIs, or the results, so its hard to give an opinion. But its beginning to sound as if the SIs were written so that in tie break terms all the races were equal, and the doubling of points only applied when totalling the points. If so it must have been fun to set up in the scoring system!


To be frank, I don't feel like we deserved to win. We lost because we let a lead in the last race slip away to a third. But just throwing this out for discussion, because Appendix A works for results where all races are treated equally. Changing the scoring so one race is given an elevated status is unusual and it must have caused some problems otherwise the result would have been consistent (results below are wrong, we actually came second, but were the result from the 200s). 

The overall format of the event was super and great for a cold end of season event to bring all the classes together. Plus we had some of the tightest races of all season in the 800 on Sunday. 






Edited by mozzy - 05 Nov 18 at 5:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 6:28pm
It does seem a little bit ambiguous.

The way I read it the race scores in the pursuit race are 1,2,3,4, like all the other races. The pursuit scores are then doubled when the series total is calculated.

So that makes me think that
1144 scores 1,1,3,(3)
1220 scores 1,1,2,(5)
Which means that 1220 gets the series under 8.1 on the 3rd result.

The pursuit doesn't have any special weighting in the tie break.
I'm not sure if I could get Sailwave to calculate that though!

If on the other hand the pursuit score was doubled for the discards then
1144 scores 1,2,3,(3)
1220 scores 1,1,4,(5)
and 1220 still wins, but on the second score.

Doing it like this has the surprising effect that the pursuit is down weighted. This would be much easier to set up in Sailwave.

I think if the organisers wanted the pursuit to have extra weight in the tie break they'd need to set up up like a medal race, where the result in the pursuit is the first tie break. It would get awfully complicated though.





Edited by JimC - 05 Nov 18 at 6:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 6:49pm
Surely the whole point of a medal race format is that the medal race decides the medals in a way the average non sailing punter can understand. The previous series decides who get's into the MR but scores are not carried forward. To do it any other way defeats the object (and, yes, I do understand that it isn't usually done that way for whatever reason). I assume the system used here is to increase the importance of the pursuit race to reflect it's much longer duration? In which case it should be half points not double if low point scoring is employed?

Edited by Sam.Spoons - 05 Nov 18 at 6:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 18 at 7:17pm
Halfing the points decreases the significance of a race as the point gaps between boats for that race will be less.

0.5 (1), 2, 3 = 5.5
1.5 (3), 1, 2 = 4.5
So two boats that would be on equal points had the scores not been halved, now the one two positions behind in the half points race wins by a point.

So if you want to make a race more important in the overall score you have to multiply by a number greater than 1.

They obviously arbitrarily chose to double the scores to make the pursuit more important and non-discard (otherwise everyone would discard it!). So the next question is if you've determined that a race is twice as important in overall score, do you also want that reflected in the tiebreak? I.e if you're breaking a tie, is a win in a long race and one win in a short race better than two short race wins?
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