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A new class of dinghy?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 7:46pm
Originally posted by Turkey Pie

That's not the point I'm trying to make. If you put a mast head kite on the 800 i think it would mostly increase its overall relative performance in a breeze resulting in handicap reduction and it being even more difficult to make it work in the light.

I have raced against a good 14 with T foil and was only marginally slower downwind but was completely blitzed by it upwind and on reaches in a force 4. Similar observations with 49ers.

 I know the boat i am looking for would be niche and therefore not viable. My skill set can deal with a boat more difficult to sail than a 800 in a breeze because its narrower but similar sail area. This would result in a slower boat which would work better in the light as handicapped to suit.

I've had the exact opposite experience in the 800 versus 14s. 

I think the masthead kite would makes most difference in sub 12 knot when currently the 800 isn't twin wiring. 

I think there are two thing, the width of the waterline and the width of the rack for righting moment (which is variable on the 800). I thought you were saying to narrow the racks, to reduce righting moment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Aug 18 at 9:12pm
Originally posted by Gfinch

Originally posted by mozzy


The problem is, modern materials enable us to go lighter and faster. But, lighter and faster are not good properties for a peoples boat to be sailed at a range of venues. As a result it's very hard to improve over older designs. 


So at Salcombe GIN SYC Regatta an almost 20 year old N12 based on a 1987 design (Final Chapter) was giving the DCB (sailed by the current National Champions) a run for its money. It did similar at the RHYC Open. Ok so it has a T Foil rudder but still could win at the Nationals. That is good value for money.....no need to form a new dinghy class!

Great to hear, and Thorntonís did well too.  The National 12 class has a great history of spawning some successful one designs, notably the Graduate, Lark and arguably the RS200, perhaps a slightly detuned, and stretched National 12 that would readily carry 22 stone would be more accessible to a wider audience?

To be honest, this thread should be treated as bar chat, since the single most challenging thing for any new class is a lack of a market of affordable and competitive second hand boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Turkey  Pie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 6:45am
Any boat that the crew needs to stand on foredeck in light wind is flawed in versatility in my opinion. I'm not going to claim to understand the exact science of the problem but assume its inherent with the skiff qualities which make it great to sail in a breeze.

The 800 with larger kite / narrower wings would still suffer from same problem


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 8:53am
Originally posted by Turkey Pie

Any boat that the crew needs to stand on foredeck in light wind is flawed in versatility in my opinion. I'm not going to claim to understand the exact science of the problem but assume its inherent with the skiff qualities which make it great to sail in a breeze.
Skiffs are going to be slow compared to other boats in light winds, but that doesn't matter for racing other 800s. 

It would be frustrating on shifty, restricted waters, in light winds though. Bit harsh to call that a flaw however, when it's clearly not the MO of the design. Swords aren't flawed cutting instruments because they're cumbersome at the dinner table. 

But I get your point, you'd like a twin trapeze because hiking is painful, but you want something that isn't sticky in the light winds. 

Originally posted by Turkey Pie

The 800 with larger kite / narrower wings would still suffer from same problem
Exactly my point, if you want an 800 which carries more weight and goes better in light winds, then it's the hull shape that you need to change, not the rig size to righting moment ratio. 

A national 18, but with two on the wire, rather than two hiking and one trapeze? 
Twin trapeze tempest?


Edited by mozzy - 30 Aug 18 at 8:55am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 9:11am
Originally posted by Turkey Pie

Any boat that the crew needs to stand on foredeck in light wind is flawed in versatility in my opinion. I'm not going to claim to understand the exact science of the problem but assume its inherent with the skiff qualities which make it great to sail in a breeze.

The 800 with larger kite / narrower wings would still suffer from same problem



My simple understanding of the issue is that a boat that's fast and well-behaved at speed needs flat sections in the stern and not much wateline width or rocker.
So, when there are no hydrodynamic forces working, there isn't enough immersed volume to keep the transom out of the water without moving the crew weight a long way forwards.
This is made worse in many boats by mainsheets and other features which make it hard for the helm to move forwards, so the crew must move further.
Part of the problem is our tendency to classify boats by LOA. Design seems always to have been about getting the most out of a 12 or 14ft boat, rather than a boat with say 12sqm of sail or 50kg of plywood.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 9:27am
Originally posted by mozzy

Originally posted by Turkey Pie

Any boat that the crew needs to stand on foredeck in light wind is flawed in versatility in my opinion. I'm not going to claim to understand the exact science of the problem but assume its inherent with the skiff qualities which make it great to sail in a breeze.
Skiffs are going to be slow compared to other boats in light winds, but that doesn't matter for racing other 800s. 

It would be frustrating on shifty, restricted waters, in light winds though. Bit harsh to call that a flaw however, when it's clearly not the MO of the design. Swords aren't flawed cutting instruments because they're cumbersome at the dinner table. 

But I get your point, you'd like a twin trapeze because hiking is painful, but you want something that isn't sticky in the light winds. 

Originally posted by Turkey Pie

The 800 with larger kite / narrower wings would still suffer from same problem
Exactly my point, if you want an 800 which carries more weight and goes better in light winds, then it's the hull shape that you need to change, not the rig size to righting moment ratio. 

A national 18, but with two on the wire, rather than two hiking and one trapeze? 
Twin trapeze tempest?

If you want to go faster than an 800, you need to ditch its USP which is that it's pretty fast boat that two average club sailors can get around the course.
If you made the kite bigger, that might be OK for w/l courses, but you'd probably make the boat slower on a typical club 'pointless harbour tour'.
You need to decide whether you are happy with a SMOD, one kite for all courses and weathers, or you want to be owning two or three kites and choosing on the day.
The 800 in my view is a product in a good niche. It's fast enough to be aspirational for 'mere mortal' leisure sailors, and accessible to them, and rewarding enough to get/retain some good sailors. But it's not trying to steal the I14 or 49er market.
Which is why I thought the RS900 might have had a future as the aspirational boat for club sailors.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 9:43am
What is needed?

Easy - something that is nice to sail across the wind range..... and with enough marketing budget to buy up all the used boats in whatever class itís trying to usurp from the UK space and ship them off to an emerging market somewhere to spread the international love of sailing.... alternatively land fill to China.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 9:46am
Turkey Pie, buy a 505 and helm from the wire  Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 10:18am
Originally posted by RS400atC

 
The 800 in my view is a product in a good niche. It's fast enough to be aspirational for 'mere mortal' leisure sailors, and accessible to them, and rewarding enough to get/retain some good sailors. But it's not trying to steal the I14 or 49er market.
Which is why I thought the RS900 might have had a future as the aspirational boat for club sailors.
I think the other 800 thing is the weight equalisation. This massively widens the competitive weight range. Twin trapeze asymmetrics are going to be a fairly tight niche, even with the sail-ability of the 800. Fixed wings and no lead in the 900, plus the mast head kite gave it quite a bit more performance, but would have limited who could have competitively raced it. 

Plus, on the 800 you're already getting to the upper end of what most lakes can handle in terms of usable speed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 11:41am
My 3p worth.

Target space: fast-draining double-hander for couples, parent+child, two people, carrying capacity to ~24-25 stone.

A ~14ft, hiking, ~6ft wide boat with double floor but decent leg room (high freeboard), twin-pole system with symetric kite out of bow-chute. dagger* & kick-up rudder. Furling jib. Carbon sticks. Semi battened main with two sizes.

One high aspect, larger area for folks who sail inland and will likely spend more time white-sailing and needing reach 'above' trees. One same head height but shorter foot length, so less overall area, for folks sailing on the briny/open water who would be over-powered with the bigger main.

Should mean one mast, one boom but two sails with different properties to the overall package. Keeping boom at same height enables the twin-pole kite system to be kept relatively simple.

I would prefer such a boat to have an overall lower cost & complexity drive, so staymaster type shroud adjustment versus full adjustable, 'pin and rack' jib cars etc. Off-boom main sheet to free up cockpit space and remove need for traveller/hoop.

*Dagger board is cheaper to build, easier to fix and replace and is well proven on even the shingliest beaches ala Aero, Laser etc.

A boat lighter than a 2000 on land as well as water, but with similar carrying characteristics and ease of use. Symetric kite because they are better suited to a wider range of waters and uses. Two sail sizes to accomodate different use cases. Open sailmakers would encourage more parties to be interested and promoting.
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