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A new class of dinghy?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by getafix

My 3p worth.

Target space: fast-draining double-hander for couples, parent+child, two people, carrying capacity to ~24-25 stone.

A ~14ft, hiking, ~6ft wide boat with double floor but decent leg room (high freeboard), twin-pole system with symetric kite out of bow-chute. dagger* & kick-up rudder. Furling jib. Carbon sticks. Semi battened main with two sizes.

One high aspect, larger area for folks who sail inland and will likely spend more time white-sailing and needing reach 'above' trees. One same head height but shorter foot length, so less overall area, for folks sailing on the briny/open water who would be over-powered with the bigger main.

Should mean one mast, one boom but two sails with different properties to the overall package. Keeping boom at same height enables the twin-pole kite system to be kept relatively simple.

I would prefer such a boat to have an overall lower cost & complexity drive, so staymaster type shroud adjustment versus full adjustable, 'pin and rack' jib cars etc. Off-boom main sheet to free up cockpit space and remove need for traveller/hoop.

*Dagger board is cheaper to build, easier to fix and replace and is well proven on even the shingliest beaches ala Aero, Laser etc.

A boat lighter than a 2000 on land as well as water, but with similar carrying characteristics and ease of use. Symetric kite because they are better suited to a wider range of waters and uses. Two sail sizes to accomodate different use cases. Open sailmakers would encourage more parties to be interested and promoting.

Sounds like a recipe for being a little bit better in some ways, sometimes, than other boats.
But not really excelling at anything in particular.
If I wanted a twin pole sym kite on a 14ft two hander, I'd buy a Merlin. Or a Scorpion or ....
Unless high perfromance is essential to tthe package, I wouldn't want a dagger board. I've sailed at too many places with shallow bits on the race course, not just where you launch.

If you want aero-style new class growth, I think you need to sell something which is several notches lighter/faster/(better in some other way, as perceived by people who might actually buy one). Not just a slight tweaking of the same old formula.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6625 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 1:57pm
The trouble I have with working out a modern two hander for modern size people is that the boat comes out too fast.

A current state of the art boat needs to be longer than a traditional design, because there's less volume in the bow. Then the actual weight carrying needs to be greater than it used to be, so its got to have proportionally more volume, which makes it longer yet. So a modern equivalent to a 1950s 14 footer for the equivalent sailors is probably going to be pushing 16ft waterline, maybe even a tad more.

Now given some reasonable righting moment and a reasonable sized rig, that thing is going to go upwind like I don't know what... Which isn't really a big problem, although the faster you are the more likely the boat is to become a corner banger.

No, the problem comes downwind. Lets say that we give it a decent rocker profile so its pretty slippery. Given any breeze its going to be very quick offwind. Quick enough to get the average sailor into trouble quicker than they can get out. You look at what are considered "seaworthy" dinghies, and they're mostly at best not especially quick downhill for their size. Our slippery lightweight rocket is going to be a handful when it stuffs its slim bow into the backs of the waves its overtaking.

So what do we do about this? We can make the boat shorter and heavier with a fuller bow, and we can give it loads of rocker aft, especially on the buttocks so it steadies up at speed and drags a big sternwave behind it, and that gives us a boat the average club sailor can manage.

And hey presto, we've turned it into an RS400, so why bother? There's already one of them...


Edited by JimC - 30 Aug 18 at 1:58pm
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 2:58pm
if you're after hiking the 400 is brilliant, perhaps they should make a sym kite version too? RS400S and RS400A

if you want a "fireball" replacement then a lighter weight iso type open dinghy, single trapeze with sym kite option.

boats like the 400 couldve of easily handle having a sym option.  Have an open meeting circuit that alternates between the modes, or even have two circuits?
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 3:20pm
Originally posted by JimC

The trouble I have with working out a modern two hander for modern size people is that the boat comes out too fast.

A current state of the art boat needs to be longer than a traditional design, because there's less volume in the bow. Then the actual weight carrying needs to be greater than it used to be, so its got to have proportionally more volume, which makes it longer yet. So a modern equivalent to a 1950s 14 footer for the equivalent sailors is probably going to be pushing 16ft waterline, maybe even a tad more.

Now given some reasonable righting moment and a reasonable sized rig, that thing is going to go upwind like I don't know what... Which isn't really a big problem, although the faster you are the more likely the boat is to become a corner banger.

No, the problem comes downwind. Lets say that we give it a decent rocker profile so its pretty slippery. Given any breeze its going to be very quick offwind. Quick enough to get the average sailor into trouble quicker than they can get out. You look at what are considered "seaworthy" dinghies, and they're mostly at best not especially quick downhill for their size. Our slippery lightweight rocket is going to be a handful when it stuffs its slim bow into the backs of the waves its overtaking.

So what do we do about this? We can make the boat shorter and heavier with a fuller bow, and we can give it loads of rocker aft, especially on the buttocks so it steadies up at speed and drags a big sternwave behind it, and that gives us a boat the average club sailor can manage.

And hey presto, we've turned it into an RS400, so why bother? There's already one of them...

This hints at all sorts of preconconceptions of what is 'desirable' in a racing dinghy.
I suspect your concept of what is considered a 'seaworthy' dinghy is quite different from mine.
If you're looking for seaworthy with a meaning a bit like 'what would I choose to be sailing when everything else is falling over?', give me a 505 any day, possibly with a smaller kite. Second choice would be a Merlin.

When it comes to making a boat that's 'too fast', well that obviously depends whee you're going to sail it and what you're going to race against. And whether you are trying to attract people who enjoy sailing a fast boat or whether you are trying to make the best of PY racing against some arbitrary selection of classes.
Personally, I wouldn't put my credit card on the table for a boat which wasn't faster than the 400, unless I was joining an established class for class racing. I've spent too many hours sailing against current not to appreciate a boat which goes fast in a good range of conditions. I'm looking for a boat which is seaworthy, not pondworthy.
I think the key thing is to understand the motivations of your target market.
If you attempt to tick too many boxes, you won't tick any at all.
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Posts: 437 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zippyRN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 11:13pm
Originally posted by getafix

My 3p worth.

Target space: fast-draining double-hander for couples, parent+child, two people, carrying capacity to ~24-25 stone.

A ~14ft, hiking, ~6ft wide boat with double floor but decent leg room (high freeboard), twin-pole system with symetric kite out of bow-chute. dagger* & kick-up rudder. Furling jib. Carbon sticks. Semi battened main with two sizes.

One high aspect, larger area for folks who sail inland and will likely spend more time white-sailing and needing reach 'above' trees. One same head height but shorter foot length, so less overall area, for folks sailing on the briny/open water who would be over-powered with the bigger main.

Should mean one mast, one boom but two sails with different properties to the overall package. Keeping boom at same height enables the twin-pole kite system to be kept relatively simple.

I would prefer such a boat to have an overall lower cost & complexity drive, so staymaster type shroud adjustment versus full adjustable, 'pin and rack' jib cars etc. Off-boom main sheet to free up cockpit space and remove need for traveller/hoop.

*Dagger board is cheaper to build, easier to fix and replace and is well proven on even the shingliest beaches ala Aero, Laser etc.

A boat lighter than a 2000 on land as well as water, but with similar carrying characteristics and ease of use. Symetric kite because they are better suited to a wider range of waters and uses. Two sail sizes to accomodate different use cases. Open sailmakers would encourage more parties to be interested and promoting.


sounds  rather  Merlin Rocket  / RS400 ish 
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 18 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

 
Part of the problem is our tendency to classify boats by LOA. Design seems always to have been about getting the most out of a 12 or 14ft boat, rather than a boat with say 12sqm of sail or 50kg of plywood.


Dead right, and the interesting thing is that people from different times and places have used other utterly different methods of classifying boats, and were just as sure that theirs was the right way. That seems to show how subjective each form of measurement is.
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The history and design of the racing dinghy.
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1330 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 7:16am
Originally posted by zippyRN

 
sounds  rather  Merlin Rocket  / RS400 ish 

A Merlin with somewhere for the crew to sit combined with an RS400 that you could point straight downwind would appeal to quite a few I think.
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 7:40am
Sounds like an MRX
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Posts: 1330 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Sounds like an MRX

And there lies the problem; excellent products have been developed by good people to fit into identifiable niches, notably the MRX, Icon and 59er, which have failed to gather critical mass probably due to conservatism and a desire on the part of buyers not to forgoe the class racing and structure offered by the established classes.

In the boom times of the 70s and 80s these classes would have gotestablished.

The Hadron 2 appears to be getting some critical mass, possibly because it’s target market is the group of people with some disposable income, who are looking for something exciting to sail while they still can, and don’t wish to be dependent on a crew.

I have sailed an H2 and loved it, and would buy one if it were not for the fact that I can club race with 15 Solos every weekend, and can go to Nationals and venues like Garda and race with lots of similar boats.  Should this change I look forward to sending my (metaphorical) cheque to Keith.
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 18 at 8:55am
Bizarrely for me, who always reacts with distain when anyone suggests making a lightweight Finn, I’d like to see what a lightweight Flying Dutchman with a new, modern, efficient rig would be like.... Would it be even quicker? Would it spoil it?

I love FDs (not sailed one yet), but can’t help wondering...

Edited by Bootscooter - 31 Aug 18 at 9:20am
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