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Rule 30.2 Z Flag

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Rule 30.2 Z Flag
    Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

The PC should DNE under RRS2. See, for example, in Case 78 -"Whenever a boat intentionally breaks a rule, she also breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a)."
I disagree.

First, this would require a protest, when the boat has already been scored OCS by the race committee without a hearing.

Second, in any case, the boat having been scored OCS, any breach has negligible effect on the fairness of the competition (absent interference with other boats, which shouldn't be taken for granted), so rule 2 should not be used.

Rule 2, Fair Sailing
Rule 69, Misconduct
Generally, an action by a competitor that directly affects the fairness of the competition or failing to take an appropriate penalty when the competitor is aware of breaking a rule, should be considered under rule 2. Any action, including a serious breach of rule 2 or any other rule, that the committee considers may be an act of misconduct should be considered under rule 69.

IIf anyone is really that fussed about lack of sportsmanship, let them make the case to the protest committee for a rule 69 hearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 10:24pm
Originally posted by Brass

Z flag penalty is an additional penalty additional to the requirement for a boat to start in accordance with the definition of start.

Under a Z flag, a boat that is over early, in the triangle, and does not return and start according to the definition of start is OCS and scored accordingly.

Race Management Manual M3.6 Z Flag Rule, last paragraph

Note: if boats infringe the Z Flag Rule, but there is no General Recall, those boats will receive an Individual Recall and will be treated under RRS 29.1 and RRS 30.2. So boats deliberately starting early will have no advantage except that they might interfere with other competitors heading for a good start.

Thanks Brass, this explanation is much clearer to me than the wording of the 30.2 or 44.3 which is not explicit about the requirement to restart correctly.  I guess I was reading this to be a lighter alternative to a BFD score, but this does make sense.  The difficulty in implementation is the physical difficulty of the early starters getting back behind the line after the gun and the race committee monitoring returnees, particularly if it is a fixed line with no “open” ends.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 9:35pm
The PC should DNE under RRS2. See, for example, in Case 78 -"Whenever a boat intentionally breaks a rule, she also breaks rule 2, and possibly rule 69.1(a)."
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 9:33pm
Z flag penalty is an additional penalty additional to the requirement for a boat to start in accordance with the definition of start.

Under a Z flag, a boat that is over early, in the triangle, and does not return and start according to the definition of start is OCS and scored accordingly.

Race Management Manual M3.6 Z Flag Rule, last paragraph

Note: if boats infringe the Z Flag Rule, but there is no General Recall, those boats will receive an Individual Recall and will be treated under RRS 29.1 and RRS 30.2. So boats deliberately starting early will have no advantage except that they might interfere with other competitors heading for a good start.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 9:33pm
I always thought the 20% was a time penalty!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 7:33pm
Fair comment, in the post above I had assumed that it was a time penalty rather than points. I have just read up on the Z Flag rule and get where you are coming from. Unfortunately the powers that be don't seem too concerned about the mid/back fleet sailors and a front of the fleet guy who relied on such tactics would be unlikely to reap any benefit. If you are regularly in the top 5 at events with 60+ boats you'd be unlikely to be counting any 13 point scores.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 6:28pm
60 boat fleet, so 20% penalty is 12 points.  So 1 + 12 = 13, which could be a counter in a high scoring series, or for a back of the fleet sailor benefiting from clear air, could be his best result
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 6:12pm
I'd have thought a 20% penalty would pretty much put you from first to last in a half decent fleet even if your usual finishing position is in the top few boats.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 18 at 5:55pm
Does anyone know how to deal with boats that might deliberately be over the starting line of a start under the Z Flag Rule, for instance a boat could start several boat lengths up the course, finish first and end up in a better position than he might usually be after adding a 20% penalty to his first?

Or if someone deliberately starts early to cover another boat, and a 20% penalty puts him in a better position than if he had started normally?

What is the situation where a starter is late to arrive for a start and is on course side ... can he simply head up and join the race late and take the 20% penalty?

I can see that a Z Flag could be less draconian than a Black Flag, but I cannot see how these abuses can be reconciled.

Or is this left to rule 69 to resolve?
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