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Rumours of Olympics event changes

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by iiiiticki

What is that quote, "There are lies, damned lies and statistics".

That really is one of the stupidest false aphorisms ever devised. Its use is somewhat reminiscent of Godwin's law...



Edited by JimC - 07 Sep 16 at 2:24pm
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by iiiiticki

Thank you Chris 249 for your detailed reply. However you do seem to be advocating 'no change'? Are we to stick with Laser for ever then, for all the reasons you give? Should we still have the Flying Dutchman (however lovely) rather than the 49er?

I didn't say that, but if we are going to change to a newer class why in the world would we change to a boat like the Byte CII which has basically a 1970s concept and hull shape?

And no, I don't see a reason to change for changes' sake. 

You seem to separate club sailors from Olympians but from club sailors mighty Olympians do grow!

The point is that YOU seem to want to separate club sailors from Olympians. Around the world club sailors overwhelmingly choose Lasers over Bytes - Jim has shown the size of the margin. 

At the moment there is no separation. Olympians and future Olympians can sail Lasers at club level and they certainly have done so. If the Byte came in as the women's boat, then the separation would have to occur. It would have to occur in much of Africa, Oceania, the USA, South America and Europe, where the Byte class is tiny or non-existent.

At the moment there is no separation so why do you want to create it?


 Byte has an International Class Association and a World Championship. There are Byte manufacturers throughout the World and it is particularly popular in the Far East. 

As far as de-selecting Laser causing hardship by making the boats redundant at club level, well in GB that has already happened and I believe that our club is fairly representative. I have not seen a new Laser in ten years whereas in the last three years we have had 3 new Bytes, 3 new Aeros and 2 new Supernovas.....or should that be Supernovi? The only Lasers seen on the water are beaten up club boats and Lasers are effective weed suppressants at most clubs in the UK.

Wrong. The last UK Laser nationals had 130 boats that were four years old or less. That's in just one regatta. That indicates a rate of UK new boat purchase well above the 50 Bytes built in 2 years.

Look at a globe. The UK is a small island off Europe. It has arguably the world's best dinghy scene in some ways but it is highly unusual and only a tiny fraction of the world sailing scene. So what is (allegedly) happening in the UK is almost completely irrelevant to an Olympic class.

I can't actually find information to confirm the Byte is very big in Asia - 35 boats at the Singapore nationals is respectable, but tiny compared to the Radial fleets in the world.

The Laser is a very popular boat and has a valid place in the sailing firmament but is it still relevant at what should be the pinnacle of the sport? 

It's the world's most popular racing dinghy, apart perhaps from the Opti. In what way is that irrelevant? Is it more "relevant" to use an even slower and vastly less popular boat, like the Byte?

By the way, when we got the Bytes out here the female Olympic aspirant (world Youth rep) I asked said she didn't like them. I wouldn't normally bring that up but if you insist on making negative remarks about another class then I may as well do so about yours.


As far as the lighter weight men's class goes I do not know of an international alternative but for ladies that alternative already exists, was designed for the job and does already have a Worldwide following and class structure which just needs tweaking a little.



The Byte doesn't have a major worldwide following. It gets only about 20 boats to the UK nationals, which according to the class' official report is the country in which it is more popular than any other. 

In Australia there were 5 (five) CIIs at the nationals, compared to over 190 Radials. The last results I can find for the USA show 3 (yes, three) US boats at the nationals compared to well over 100 Radials. Canada, home of the Byte, had 146 Radials at the 2016 Youth nationals and seven (yes, just 7) CIIs.  Oh, and the UK has 20 Bytes at nationals and what, 130-ish Radials?

Yes, the Radial has the benefit of being a squad boat in the UK but the Byte has the advantage of being the Youth Olympic Games and a former Youth Worlds boat. If you are going to say the Radial numbers are inflated by being used for major events then you have to also admit that the Byte numbers are inflated by being used for major events.




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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Double post, sorry



Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Sep 16 at 9:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iiiiticki

What is that quote, "There are lies, damned lies and statistics".

That really is one of the stupidest false aphorisms ever devised. Its use is somewhat reminiscent of Godwin's law...


Agreed. The odd thing is that people bring it up when discussing very simple numbers like the numbers of boats at regattas and coming out of builders. It's not as if this stuff involves some complicated manipulations.




Edited by Chris 249 - 07 Sep 16 at 3:00pm
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rich96 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rich96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 3:30pm
Is this Byte V Radial debate really worth it ?

The Radial is faster, more popular, more available and half of the sailing world have never seen a Byte ?

There are lots of 'good' boats that wont ever be used in the Olympics
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 4:02pm
Anyway, the Finn has had it.....i bought one. I seem to be the kiss of death for every other class I've bought
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 4:12pm
No Maxi its just your sailing thats had the kiss of death.
You bought a finn.
Hope you dont go anywhere with a steep slipway!!

Joking apart glad to hear your getting back on the water, Phantoms have gone to pot look at the results slow 4th, what is the world coming to.
Do you think Northern beer suited him?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iiiiticki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by rich96

Is this Byte V Radial debate really worth it ?

The Radial is faster, more popular, more available and half of the sailing world have never seen a Byte ?

There are lots of 'good' boats that wont ever be used in the Olympics

Probably not. It started because I believe that Byte would be a better Ladies single hander for the Olympics than the Radial. It was designed for that purpose and is a viable alternative. I was not knocking the World wide but 'sensitive' Laser fleet. Whoever wishes to carry on sailing Lasers is welcome to do so however eventually the boat must become even more dated and a replacement found. Where is the argument in that?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 5:28pm
Whoever wishes to carry on sailing Lasers is welcome to do so however eventually the boat must become even more dated and a replacement found. Where is the argument in that?

No, but I suspect it might take longer than you expect - quite possibly decades.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 16 at 6:26pm
Think your right. Lasers will continue to be the dominant single hander for years/ decades. Must say I was wasn't surprised how low the number of new lasers sold was. If you take out the number sold to national squads and holiday companies there cannot be many sold to normal club sailors. Certainly at my club nobody has brought a new laser since 2000 and I am the only member to buy a second hand one in that time. In fact in that time we have gone from having a small fleet to only having two regular laser sailors. One who sails on Wednesday evening's and me on Sunday's.

Edited by zeon - 07 Sep 16 at 6:31pm
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