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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Dec 15 at 12:06am
So how do you decide which people to believe and which not?

A significant number of people believe:
That homeopathy is real and effective
That praying to Mother Teresa can cure terminal cancer
That ibuprofen is an effective anti-inflammatory and painkiller

How do you eliminate the first two?
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 1:14pm
I'd define science as the history and future of human discovery.  There are many ways to achieve that, and when we look back at humanity over the hundreds of thousands of years it has been able to record itself, or we take whatever glimpse we can into the future before it unfolds; labs, double blind trials and university research centres make up on a very small minutiae of contribution to the scientific cannon.

I have also not said I don't see a value in clinical trials, I just question their merit to be the one and only authority on any given subject as you seem to suggest.  And as Roger points out, they all seem to come with their individual detractors from within their own academic / research peer group; so please, as a layman, forget trying to give them too much credibility when their own kind think most of these studies have questionable techniques, methods and outcomes.  Give me a real world opinion, free from political bias or commercial agenda, any day over that.    Give me two or three opinions roughly in the same direction, like we have here, and frankly, things like Bowen begin to hold water.  


Edited by turnturtle - 22 Dec 15 at 1:21pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 12:11pm
Well here's a thing, if I came on and said there's a guy in Southampton giving away free <insert boat of your choice> if you answered a couple of simple questions that I then went on to detail, would that anedotal account be any more meaningful in improving you circumstance?

For some of us, anecdotal advice from folk who's opinion we respect is more valuable than that from nhs hirelings, as it was from my interwebchum Max the windsurfer... It's just opinion, detailed in a helpful post on a bulletin board, act on it, or act on it not, most readers here are bright enough to make their own decision without some representative from the Association of Narcissistic Authoritarian Logic Trolls helping them out with the decision making process.

Edited by iGRF - 22 Dec 15 at 12:13pm
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 10:11am
Originally posted by turnturtle

Let's face it Ben, there are two posters here who say it worked for them. According to you there is no quantifiable study out there to prove what they say. My idea would be you get two posters who have tried it and think it's a crock of sh*t to post back, then there's a real debate, not this pseudo scientific process bullsh*t from the sidelines...

Well that's because you see value in anecdotal accounts of successful treatment and I don't - from my point of view that would be a pointless debate.  I get it, you don't see the value in clinical trials, you think they're "pseudo scientific process bullsh*t", whereas I think they're very much "science".

Let's move on!  

P.S. for the record I never said anything about bowen being effective or not, I just said that anecdotal accounts of it working are meaningless and that you need much more before turning your back on proven treatments.  I've never looked in any detail at it.
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didlydon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote didlydon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 9:36am
That's a very noble & buddhist idea Mr Peaky... striving to be happy (according to my missus who's a member of SGI...google it..) Happy Christmas One & All!!!  Tongue
Vareo 365

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Peaky View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Peaky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 1:19am
Moving the subject on a bit... My neighbour is a GP and as I was chatting to him at the village panto last week he said something I found very thought provoking. Crudely speaking, He said the aim of life is basically to be happy, and being healthy is just a means to an end to achieve that. But there are sad healthy people and happy poorly people. His suggestion was that doctors should be looking to make people happy, and improving their health is just one way to achieve that. If giving them theatre tickets is cheaper and ultimately more effective at increasing happiness than a painful and potentially unsuccesful medical treatment, then perhaps that is a pragmatic prescription? I'm paraphrasing, but you get the gist.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 15 at 12:35am
Let's face it Ben, there are two posters here who say it worked for them. According to you there is no quantifiable study out there to prove what they say. My idea would be you get two posters who have tried it and think it's a crock of sh*t to post back, then there's a real debate, not this pseudo scientific process bullsh*t from the sidelines...
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:14pm
[QUOTE=bustinben]
Surely you see the irony here? No? Just me?

Fraid so, just you again, and my toys and surprisingly even the dummy? still here in the pram.

Bowen does that for you, calms you down, as well as correcting all the other stuff.
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by Roger


Originally posted by bustinben

You can know. A<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> placebo controlled double blind trial does just that.  You take a large enough group of people, you randomise them into two groups, you subject half to the treatment, half to a pretence at the treatment. </span>
You measure the outcomes and you apply the proper statistical methods to verify that your result didn't happen by chance.
http://i-base.info/ttfa/8-clinical-trials-and-research/8-7-randomised-double-blind-placebo-controlled-trials/
Double blinding is not always possible depending on the treatment in question, but it's the standard that should be aspired to.
I'm genuinely interested in how you know that what you feel in your own body is not placebo.  You'd be the first person in history to be able to do that.  The placebo effect is amazing, strange, and incredibly effective seeing as it is basically nothing.   Red pills are more effective than white ones, how much you pay changes the amount of pain relief you feel, placebo injections are more effective than placebo pills, but neither are as effective as placebo operations...
All of these things have been measured properly in repeatable studies.
Apart from the fact that when the results of the "Gold Standard" placebo controlled trial are published the good and the great of the medical profession will not agree on the results and argue for and against the outcomes, should have been done this way, or that way, sample size not big enough, not in western europe, average age too high, why did they exclude group A, B etc and why did they include group C, D etc and on and on and on.....I've seen it too many times to believe there is not doubt in every set of data, and to be honest most medics seem to rely on the experiences of their patients. Don't care what the data says, if it works for their patients they will continue to use it...There are also widely publicized campaigns based on zero data. For example 5 portions of fruit and veg a day, I doubt there is a person in the UK who hasn't heard that and most probably believe it is backed by extensive data, fact is it's just a made up number to encourage us all to eat more fruit and veg.


There is truth in all of that. And just because there is a study doesn't mean the matter is settled. Studies vary greatly in quality. I read one the other day that claimed that homeopathic arnica had a statistically significant effect. Then I read more closely and discovered they had redefined the meaning of stastically significant. Oh and that it had been funded by a company that makes homeopathic arnica.

It's a jungle out there, but at least if you understand how these things work you stand a chance.

Edited by bustinben - 21 Dec 15 at 11:04pm
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bustinben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bustinben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Dec 15 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

No you're not someone being rational, you're someone on the internet being 'offended' for the purpose of narcissistic authoritarianism, in love with the sound of their own irritating keystroke clicks and garnering pleasure in the reasoned response of that whom you claim to have been offended by.

Or to but it another way...

By being a Dick. Happy Christmas Mr Head.


Surely you see the irony here? No? Just me?

The scattering of toys around the GRF pram is indication enough for me. Thanks for conceding so graciously
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