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Tacking onto starboard at the windward mark

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Post Options Post Options   Quote fish n ships Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 15 at 3:51pm
My experience of these types of situations are that 9 times from 10 the other boat has got themselves into trouble has realised too late that they're approaching on the wrong tack, without any rights or enough space.  Then one of two things happens either they are inexperienced and panic or they should know better and don't want to write their race off. Either way the end result is them pushing and shoving into the starboard lay-line "boat train" whilst shouting a few rules to try to justify themselves. 

It never ends well and someone (usually another boat that was in the right) always ends up getting spat out the back/missing the mark/tacking to avoid a collision and having their race disturbed instead of the boat at fault.

We had someone that did it regularly at the windward mark and would then receive shouts/abuse (usually with some four letter words attached) from the other boats around them.  If anyone pursued it further with a protest they would threaten a counter R69 protest for the verbal shouting/confrontation.  Luckily after a season this boat left and the calm was restored - it never did end up at protest although i often wondered how much abuse would be required for a R69 protest to work?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 15 at 4:22pm
There's some guidelines that suggest that fleet norms affect what's considered inappropriate language.

The use of threats of RRS 69 to intimidate someone not to protest sounds like RRS 2 territory to me. One should never forget that under RRS 69 the PC may issue a warning rather than a penalty, and in the situation described I can imagine a PC issuing the starboard boat an RRS69 warning to try and avoid using naughty words in future and the port boat a rule 2 DND.

Edited by JimC - 10 Aug 15 at 4:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Aug 15 at 9:43pm
Too f**king right!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 1:39am
Originally posted by JimC

There's some guidelines that suggest that fleet norms affect what's considered inappropriate language.

The use of threats of RRS 69 to intimidate someone not to protest sounds like RRS 2 territory to me. One should never forget that under RRS 69 the PC may issue a warning rather than a penalty, and in the situation described I can imagine a PC issuing the starboard boat an RRS69 warning to try and avoid using naughty words in future and the port boat a rule 2 DND.

Naah.

A rule 69 hearing cannot deal with anybody other than the competitor who is alleged to have broken rule 69 (rule 69.2).

Rule 2 requires a valid protest.

A Protest Committee may protest a boat but not as a result of information in a hearing from an interested party other than the representative of the boat itself (rule 60.3)

They could, of course go to rule 69 against the threatening boat, because a protest committee can go to rule 69 on any information or report.

I'd be more inclined to dismiss the rule 69 foul language allegation;  As, I've said, mere foul language, between mature adults, IMHO, may be bad manners, but absent some aggravation, does not rise to gross bad manners.

Having done that, I'd leave the threatner alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 7:08am
I was assuming a valid protest from the starboard boat on the original issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 7:49am
That would be for a breach of rule 10, on the water?

Threat to go rule 69 when?  probably not at the time of the port/starboard incident.

Two incidents.

CASE 80
A hearing of a protest or a request for redress must be limited to the alleged
incident, action or omission.

Collisions causally linked?:

RYA Appeal 2003/3
If there is a causal link between a series of collisions,
they may be regarded as a single incident for the
purposes of rule 60.3(a)(1)

Threat the inevitable result of the port/starboard?

US Sailing Appeal 65
The test of whether two occurrences were one or two incidents is whether the
second occurrence was the inevitable result of the first. A boat intending to protest another
boat for two incidents during a race, no matter how close in time, must inform the protested
boat that two protests will be lodged.

I don't think that is going to get you there.


Edited by Brass - 11 Aug 15 at 11:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 9:45am
Never came across a Rule 69, actual or threatened, in RL. 

Actually, I was super-polite - surely a signing of my growing old. I left out anything that could be construed as abusive, though I also omitted the word 'protest', which overall I think was a mistake in view of the discussion. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 11:47am
I'm surprised anyone is debating the reasons for - 'the decline in club sailing' - on another thread on here, after reading this thread. You have gentlemen, described in a few posts why people don't want to take up sailing as a sport.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Wobble Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

You have gentlemen, described in a few posts why people don't want to take up sailing as a sport.
  
So we can take it you would prefer that we confine ourselves to discussion of non-contentious aspects of the rules of our sport?

Perhaps we should accentuate the positives, N. Korean-style. I should like to wax lyrical about the draw of the sea and of sailing, but of course someone more articulate got there before me ...

 

Do you think that would help challenge the mighty XBox?  Smile

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Aug 15 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by Wobble

Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

You have gentlemen, described in a few posts why people don't want to take up sailing as a sport.
  
So we can take it you would prefer that we confine ourselves to discussion of non-contentious aspects of the rules of our sport?


not at all, carry on.

It's a legitimate set of questions after all.

Heavens knows, maybe the process will encourage a generation of yet unknown sailors to take up a sport riddled with such contentious rules. Or just maybe, ISAF will do some editing.
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