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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:12am
Brass - I am not convinced that Call D5 is relevant. In this incident when Yellow bears away I am not convinced that she gave Blue room to keep clear. If Blue had luffed sho would have been T-boned.

In fact, looking at this again, I think Ainslie was lucky not to be penalised for deliberately breaking a rule.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:23am
So Guys, was Ainslie's expectation for Richard to tack, (then he'd head up with decent separation) or is his frustration that Richard didn't duck further & quicker?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 10:56am
To me, the idea that you can just bear away and aim at someone, and then blame them when there simply isn't anywhere for them to go, and all they can do is avoid being T boned, is sailing at its worst, and a good reason why match racing will always be a very minor part of our sport, ignored by most except when billionaires get together to play.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote ohFFsake Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 11:27am
To be fair, there is clearly a huge telescopic foreshortening effect in this clip. At the point where Ainslie bears away he looks to be very close to the other boat but they continue to sail towards each other for several seconds, so in reality the initiating move must have been from several boats lengths away.

In which case the port boat presumably had sufficient opportunity to tack or hubs away and was penalised for choosing not to do so.

It does seem like the eleventh hour head up by S worsened the impact but again it may be that if you were right there with them then this was necessary to avoid t-boning the port boar
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by gordon

Not sure that I read that the same way as Brass.

As B, on port bears away to pass astern of Y, Y bears away on to a collision course with B. At that point I can see nothing that B can do to avoid a collision except continue in a straight line and hope. As B passes ahead of Y she luffs towards a course at 180 to Yellow. A collision is still inevitable but it would have been gunwale to gunwale. At this point Y luffs hard and drives her port quarter in to B!

For me Y broke rule 16.1 and rule 14. Penalty Yellow and they pay for damages. However that is from watching the video. The umpires obviously saw something else, or were influenced by the shouting....
Originally posted by ohFFsake

To be fair, there is clearly a huge telescopic foreshortening effect in this clip. At the point where Ainslie bears away he looks to be very close to the other boat but they continue to sail towards each other for several seconds, so in reality the initiating move must have been from several boats lengths away.
I think the foreshortening is the problem:  we are nowhere near looking into the gap.  (Neither were the umpires:  the umpire boat comes into shot way outside B @18).
 
I wasn't really exercising my own judgement about the decision:  I was just reconstructing and reflecting the umpire decision.
 
I thought the point between @18 and @20 when B stopped bearing away and held a steady course, doing nothing to keep clear of Y was a time when she was not 'doing all she could'
 
Given the position of the umpire boat I'm not sure they were well-sighted.
 
Going by the fact that we can see clear water between the boats @21, the instant before the stern of Y swings into B, maybe the umpires thought that Y was, at that time, giving B room to keep clear, and actually penalised B for the course change back towards Y @21.5.
Originally posted by gordon

Brass - I am not convinced that Call D5 is relevant. In this incident when Yellow bears away I am not convinced that she gave Blue room to keep clear. If Blue had luffed sho would have been T-boned.

In fact, looking at this again, I think Ainslie was lucky not to be penalised for deliberately breaking a rule.
I thought I edited the reference to D5 to D6 before anybody noticed.
 
D6 was on:  both boats started out close hauled:  Y needed not to go below 90 (downwind course) and did so.
 
 
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 13 at 6:08pm
Ainslie holds course for 4 seconds - about a boat length judging by the conditions.When Y finishes bearing away I am not convinced that there was anywhere for B to go. Y was aiming at her bow. If B luffed she risked being T-boned, if she bore away, she risked a collision at a point where crew member's were standing.

If at 0.18 Ainslie had luffed there would have been no collision. Instead his crew (Percy) starts screaming to attract the umpire's attention.

As B first bore away she was doing enough to keep clear of Y on her course at that time. She only returned to a collision course because  Y bore away towards her. Y therefore had a rule 16 obligation to give B room to keep clear. When it became clear that Y was no going to give B room to keep clear there was nothing seamanlike that B could do.

Frankly, if I had been the umpire I would have not felt happy going in to the de-brief that evening.

As for MR Call D5 many umpires are uncomfortable with this - as it creates out of nothing a rule changing interpretation. The way this call applies it means that the ROW boat breaks rule 16.1 merely by sailing below a course perpendicular to the wind, whether she gives the other boat room or not. This was originally introduced to prevent a manouevre on the 12M's - because the MR umpires didn't or couldn't get a rule change through.

However call D6 does not mean that because Y didn't go to a downwind course she did not break rule 16.1 - she still has to give B room to keep clear. What D6 does say is that IF she had gone below 90 to the wind she would have automatically broken rule 16.1 even if B had room to keep clear.

Gordon

PS Am I the only contributor to this dicussion to have given a penalty to the Ainslie/Percy team? - as a result they lost the race!
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 13 at 11:15pm
Ok - so in AC race 18 the lee bow tack that failed will become famous.  Commentators also discussed the option to cross and go left early, but surely there was a third way on offer - the dial down?
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