Laurent Giles 'Jolly Boat' Exeter |
29er GBR 074 Tynemouth |
J24 (Sail No. 4239) Dartmouth |
List classes of boat for sale |
Let's improve the Laser mainsail! |
Post Reply | Page <12345 6> |
Author | |
combat wombat
Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 345 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Topic: Let's improve the Laser mainsail! Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 11:30am |
When a Laser mainsail (dacron, semi battened) costs the same as a B14
jib (fully battened, kevlar, zip luff, blocks on the clew for 2:1
sheets, from the best sailmaker in the world(Norths)), you know someone
at Laser is making a killing.
Quite simply they are exploiting the one design nature of the boat, because you cannot race without a genuine Laser mainsail. There is no other one design class that charges such a premium for sails. |
|
B14 GBR 772
|
|
bentye
Newbie Joined: 08 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 11:37am |
yes I think it is fair to say the price of the sails is high but so is all the kit on the boats and the sail is the most obvious example of over charging. We buy training sails for our organisation at a fraction of the price. They are pretty much identical and allow our less experienced sailors to have better looking kit. In terms of performance lots of people seem to go on about sail condition. Yes if you are a top sailor it makes a world of difference but most club sailors would see much bigger improvements from learning to hike properly or reading wind shifts. We see the old gaurd win races all the time with sub standard kit. Second hand laser sails are so easy easy to come by (I have a sail loft full), and a good sail that is washed kept dry and not allowed to flog in uv will last the average sailor a good couple of years. Hi-tech sails look sexy, perfrom better but if you believe they last longer then normal cloth you are kidding yourself.
cheap boats result in cheap boats. You only have to look at the dash to plastic from the likes of RS. I have a budget for kit and my clients want equipment that looks new. My heart hates it but the accounts don't. Plastic boats flex when you sail them hard and the material looks like a bath tub. However I can afford to replace them every two years. Boats like vago are simple sold as 'more bang for your buck' |
|
combat wombat
Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 12:12pm |
That has not been my experience with kevlar/carbon sails. They keep their shape better, for longer. Yes, after years of abuse they will fall to bits unlike a dacron sail, but they remain competitive for longer, so for racing are a better bet. |
|
B14 GBR 772
|
|
Merlinboy
Really should get out more Joined: 03 Jul 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3169 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 12:13pm |
I think you may have a point bentye, but if you are a serous racer an even half season old laser sail that has been used hard is shot. I dont have buckets of money so £400 would be to much for me to be competitive. Correct me if i'm wrong but the best bit of a laser used to be one design racing on smaller budgets. This has gone out of the window now, hence why i no longer sail a laser. to give you an example of how lasers prices have effected used prices my last laser was a laser graffiti about a year old when i got her (showing my age now) i bought it for £1400, in todays market it is still worth that if not more! Back then you could buy a new laser at the boat show for like £2500 and sails were about £250 - £300. I think that increase is a little more then the cost of inflation.
|
|
bentye
Newbie Joined: 08 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 12:35pm |
god Im starting to sound like I work for laser but in terms of club racing I still believe it remains a cheap option. In terms of purchasing, a decent boat can be picked up for one or two grand and you will have no problems finding a club in your local area. This is going to save you a fortune on travel especially if you live inland. In terms of replacement parts most years you are only going to be looking at sails if you really believe you are of that standard. Double handed boats require the purchase of harness's, regular replacement of control lines, three new sails and who will admit to not breaking a kite whilst learning.
merlinboy made a point that his boat was worth what he bought it for when he sold it (minus inflation which makes that one of the cheaper sports). We only need to look at windsurfing to see a real ripp-off. A good board will set you back 900 quid without sails boom or mast and next year because it's the wrong colour will be worthless and thats a six foot piece of foam. combat wombat believes that hi-tech carbon sails last longer well not on the large boats I've sailed. Even3dl admit the life is short that is why you don't see them on cruising boats. In our dinghy fleet any hi-tech sails are stored away until the boats are sold and replaced with cloth. Many people who buy lasers are new to the sport and the chances of them being able to keep hi-tech sails in good nick are slim. Laser sailors are not interested in the lastest materials they just want to go out and race. If you are a tinkerer and a gadget man then go a buy a development class and spend all your time in the workshop or pouring through catalogues. |
|
combat wombat
Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 12:44pm |
Laminate sails don't last very long on yachts, that is true. I've
raced big boats with some seriously expensive laminate sails (Norths,
UKs, Sobstads etc) and only on the Norths did we have no delamination
problems.
On dinghies, they do tend to keep their shape better and don't delaminate as easily (as they are proportionally heavier cloths for the loads). But, as you say for teaching you can't beat dacron. |
|
B14 GBR 772
|
|
JimC
Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6649 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 12:47pm |
Modern hi spec sails stay in their designed shape longer, but once they go they really go. Dacron goes off peak speed quicker, but stays vaguely usable after mylar sails have gone to the skip.
|
|
bentye
Newbie Joined: 08 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 12:55pm |
yeah the big killer of laminate sails is sunlight, this tends to be less of a problem on small boats as races tend to be shorter.However it worth pointing out that sailing is a local sport, I work mainly in africa and the middle east a laminate sails start to fall appart quicker then my hair used to grow.
getting back to the laser the keys points are: do we want hi-tech sails, carbon spars, fully battened rigs- if so change class, I believe the europe is a good example of this for women which no one can afford or find a fleet and I heard it may loose its olympic status. Are dacron lasers sails too expensive, yes is the answer, we need as a class to lobby regarding using other suppliers for sails. Most small clubs I imagine would not care if you used a chineese import sail as although they are good, the quality is lower. ps must be hard to be a european sail maker these days. In my humble opinion as an instructor dacron sails are easier to learn, laminate sails do not flap soo much along the luff so the use of tell tales has to be introduced much earlier, although thats another topic. |
|
combat wombat
Far too distracted from work Joined: 16 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 345 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 1:02pm |
Already gone! Replaced by... the Laser Radial. |
|
B14 GBR 772
|
|
bentye
Newbie Joined: 08 Jan 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 9 |
Post Options Quote Reply Posted: 09 Jan 07 at 1:22pm |
laser and RS will always dominate because most other builders are small scale. This is great because they other a more bespoke design and better supports for their clients, however they cannot compete.
How do new sailors choice a boat to buy: (1) what you learnt to sail in at a club or on holiday- Due to numbers this is always going to be from laser or RS. (2) what is sailed at your local club, again going to be laser or RS (3) what is available on the second hand market, again due to volume laser or RS. so who do laser and RS design for. The answer is large overseas holiday companies (markwarner, sunsail, nielson etc) and big uk training centres (plas,rockley, uksa etc.) They buy in bulk and recieve a vast discount for this ie new pico delivered £1200. The current market price is just under £2500. When they advertise fleet size this is due to bulk buying not individual sales. The markup on spares and private sails is to cover this discount and distorts the real price. The average price laser sells boats for would surprise most people. Big companies want boats that are easy to sail, fun, cheap to maintain and have spares that are the same across the range. For example the daggerboard for an rs feva is the same as on the vero. these types of boats are rarely going to appeal to hard core racers but they introduce a huge number of people into the sport. |
|
Post Reply | Page <12345 6> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |